Apocalypse Soon?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Futilitist, Jan 1, 2013.

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  1. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    100% rational?

    Tell that to the Mayans and the Easter Islanders.

    Please at least read the David Price essay, "Energy and Human Evolution" which is linked in my original post. It shows why the collapse of industrial civilization, and subsequent die off, is actually inevitable, due to the eventual depletion of the energy resources on which it depends. We are not different than any other life form on earth in this respect. How could it be otherwise?

    ---Futilitist

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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. You can tell the Mayans yourself, though; they are doing quite well. If their fate is what we have to look forward to we're in pretty good shape.

    It is not. And when the Sun, which is the source of all our energy, goes out, we will die along with it - at least, those of us left in this star system.
     
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  5. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    I believe that is the correct figure for topsoil in the Midwest. Scientists say that we are nearing peak phosphorus, and there is no known substitute. And farming also requires fresh water which is being rapidly deleted as well. And future farmers will not have farm machinery.

    ---Futilitist

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  7. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    There are descendants of the Mayans still alive today, but their ancestors had a complete social collapse and a 90-95 percent die off. If their fate is what we have to look forward to we're in terrible shape. Nine out of ten people reading this will likely die of starvation, violence, and disease within the next ten years or so. And you didn't even mention the Easter Islanders. They practiced cannibalism during their collapse.

    Did you read the essay? An eventual human die off is an absolute certainty. I asked you how it could be otherwise and you answered, "It is not." Good answer.

    And humans will be extinct long before the sun goes out. Why bring that up?

    ---Futilitist

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  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Thats because the fall of Rome to the Visigoths was not a downsizing event.

    If you want to talk about the 'decline' of Rome instead then yes...the wealthy gradually downsized, while the architecture became less and less grandiose.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The biggest difference in America is America has become more feminized. There are fewer men left; mostly women and children. If you compare the traditional husband and wife, the wife did not work, she liked to spend and was a dependent. This is the new America. Nagging and busy body were her past times, with the bad boy her preferred child. We protect criminals, nag at religion, and institute a nanny state. The stereo typical male was more self reliant, was more of a giver to his family instead of a taker, and was more frugal since his wage had to last; looking longer term. To avoid the decline, we need to overturn all sexist and racists laws and let natural selection replace liberal selection.
     
  10. elte Valued Senior Member

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    That's the old way, and society has advanced beyond patriarchal supremacy, and for good reason. We have worked toward equality of rights of the human person and made humanity more humane by doing so.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Huh? They lost ~60% of their population over 250 years. If that happens to the US that would be a good thing in my book. (Although reduction by 30% rather than 60% would probably be a better target.)

    Not at all. Mayan civilization peaked at about 20 million people; about the population of Florida. So the horror you are suggesting is that by the year 2250 the population of Florida will drop to about 6 million. I can live with that.

    There are plenty of small populations that were annihilated in horrible ways. The flooding of the Black Sea (the likely source of the Noah's Ark myth) likely killed millions. But unless you are living under a dam in an earthquake zone I wouldn't worry about it too much.

    Because that is the point where we really will run out of energy.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Dump that liberal bullshit and get them slaves back to work! Survival of the fittest (or the ones with the most guns.)
     
  13. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    Wrong. The wealthy may have downsized during the decline of Rome, as you say, but they did not end waste. And the non wealth Romans starved. In other words, Romans did not develop the "sanity" you claim we easily will.

    And your nitpicking over fall vs decline brings up some important points. The decline of Rome was ameliorated by fact that the Romans had a relatively low energy lifestyle compared to us. The majority of Romans lived closer to the land than we do, so adaptation was much easier than what we face. Their environment was not as degraded as ours. The Romans were not dependent on just in time delivery like we are. Individual Romans were not as specialized as we are. The Romans were not dependent on a particular source of power that suddenly increased in cost. The Romans weren't dependent on electrical power like we are.

    And the fall of Rome to the Visigoths was a rapid event that the Romans could not adapt to. Our social collapse will be a very rapid event. Therefore, apocalypse is also not a downsizing event. It is a die off, due to reaching the peak extraction rate of a keystone resource with no adequate substitutes.

    Why didn't the Easter Islanders or the Mayans develop the mythical "sanity" you speak of?

    Once again, there are no historical examples of the sudden attainment of "sanity".

    ---futilitist

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  14. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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  15. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    Huh?

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Maya/

    http://www.atitlan.net/maya/mayan-civilization.htm

    I'm glad you can live with your gross underestimations of, and extrapolations from, the Mayan social collapse.

    So?

    That is just silly. And who do you mean by we? The sun is expected to "go out" in about 8 billion years. Multicellular life forms have only been around for a little over 600 million years. Horseshoe crabs are thought to be the one of the oldest living species on earth. They have been around for about 445 million years. Coelacanths have been around for about 410 million years. Tyrannosaurus Rex only lasted about 3 million years. Homo erectus survived for almost 2 million years, almost double the time of any other hominid. Do you seriously expect Homo sapiens sapiens to be around in 8 billion years? You are a hyper optimist.

    ---Futilitist

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  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Paradoxically, it was conservatism that led to the decline of this lifestyle. Conservatives supported exporting jobs to foreign factories, opposed unions that raised wages, opposed protectionism and trade tariffs. So if you are wondering why American men can no longer make enough money to support a family with wife at home, just look in the mirror.
     
  17. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    We are in terrible shape, but we probably won't starve. Unlike the South American jungle, we have lots of farmland.
     
  18. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    What you don't know

    I am Futilitist, not Nostradamus, and I am not on that list. Peak oil is not even mentioned.

    I guess your point is that human civilization will last forever, right? Please read the David Price essay entitled "Energy and Human Evolution" which I linked in my original post. That essay explains why you just plain wrong.

    Has anybody actually read the essay yet? It shouldn't take more than 40 minutes to read. I guess what you don't know can't hurt you.

    No one will even try to debate the actual topic with me. I guess you are all afraid. Oh well.

    ---Futilitist

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  19. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    Good old fashioned natural selection will soon take over. That is what apocalypse is all about.

    ---Futilitist

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  20. Futilitist This so called forum is a fraud... Registered Senior Member

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    Also unlike the South American jungle, we have a much higher population as well as a higher population density. When we come off of the bumpy plateau of world oil production between now and 2015, we will experience a rapid and severe die off (90+%).

    Please take some time to read the material I provided in the original post.

    ---Futilitist

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  21. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I think that's an extreme estimate. For sure there will be less money to spend on healthcare, food, shelter, etc, but I think it will be more of a prolonged misery, not a rapid die-off. Our economic activities will reset around the needs of agriculture. This notion is nothing new, I urge you to read if you haven't already, the work of:

    James Howard Kunstler
    http://www.kunstler.com/index.php

    and

    Dmitry Orlov
    http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Here's my radical prediction - during the same time frame (150 years) 100% of Americans will die! It will be the APOCALYPSE! Of course, our kids will live on.

    BTW he is saying that that the population density went down in that area. He is not saying that they all died at the same time of some apocalypse. However believe whatever makes you happy. Not sure why you need to believe in all that death stuff, but to each their own.

    Yes, I can live with history, despite your predictions that I will, instead, die.

    Homo sapiens? No. Our descendents? Yes.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Another end-of-the-world-due-to-peak-oil prediction. These have been coming steadily for the last 20 years or so. Last one I heard was 2010.
     
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