Any non-biblical references to Christ?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Dinosaur, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Is there any referenece to Christ other than the Bible and some related texts proposed but not accepted as being part of the Bible?

    Did Josephus or any other historian from the first century write about Christ?
     
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  3. dr. cello Thrilling Conversationalist Registered Senior Member

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    Josephus did, I believe. Unfortunately I can't find the Wiki article on the subject.
     
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  5. Angelic Being Registered Senior Member

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    There are quite a few mentions by several historians - reliable information that has been researched by the foremost experts on History.
     
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  7. dr. cello Thrilling Conversationalist Registered Senior Member

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  8. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Flavius Josephus seems to have some credibility issues, considering he was a Jew but called him "The Christ".

    But yes, Angellic Being, got any contemporary sources for that? Or are you talking about the Church Fathers refering to Jesus?
     
  9. Angelic Being Registered Senior Member

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    412
    Surely you should know by now that I am not the kind of person to wave about this and that like you guys do.

    If I say it is then it is - I prefer that you find it for yourself and only until i am sure that will not then I will reveal a clue.
    I am talking about contemporaries of josephus - i believe there were another two or three who mentioned The Christ.

    Thank You.
     
  10. Nysse God is dead Registered Senior Member

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  11. dr. cello Thrilling Conversationalist Registered Senior Member

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    angel: in other words, 'i don't actually know any, but i want to try to add to the flimsy support in history that my religion has'. if your sources exist, go find them and link them. i'm not going to do your dirty work.
     
  12. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    I shall have to agree with my good friend Dr. Cello. Angellic Being, please present your evidence.
     
  13. Marlin Registered Senior Member

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    The Book of Mormon tells of Christ's visit to the ancient American peoples after His death and resurrection.
     
  14. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Marlin:

    Hardly a scholarly source. The founder claimed to gain such information through a stone deciphered through a magical lense.
     

  15. im pretty sure that they proved quite some time ago that those mentions of christ were later additions to Josephus and not things he wrote himself.

    actually when real empirical biblical scholarship began to advance in the 19th century, a lot of biblical scholars and historians came to the conclusion that Jesus was a completely invented character and never existed because there is so little credible record of his life. not to mention the fact that jesus being as controversial and political a figure as he was would have likely been mentioned by someone in addition to josephus if he had done the amazing things that he is claimed to have done. josephus wasnt the only historian around.

    i mean consider this: jesus at some point in his life was a rabbi, or a preacher in the jewish tradition at the least. judaism at the time was reaaaaaaaallly serious about marriage and reproduction. it was almost considered a mortal sin if a rabbi did not marry and procreate, and it was just as imperative for regular jewish men as well, the theory being that god's chosen people (as the jews believed themselves to be) should each do their duty to populate the earth with their kind. it would have been unnaturally uncommon for a man of religion (such as a rabbi or religious teacher) to not marry and remain celibate. it would be so odd in fact that Josephus makes reference to a figure earlier in history who did this and attests to how weird everyone thought it was. so jesus, if he were really the way he is portrayed in the new testament would have warranted mention for that AT LEAST. but you cant find it can you, because its not there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2005

  16. THE BOOK OF MARLIN!
     
  17. geeser Atheism:is non-prophet making Valued Senior Member

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    1,305
    jesus was and is a myth there is mention of a jesus person in the quran, and a mention of several jesus's in the talmud, but none hold any water, the stories of jesus, or some other name go back thousands and thousands of years, aside from jesus, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, mithras, dumuzi(Tammuz), Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religion was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.
    it is all pure mythology
    mithras
    mithras, the truth behind xianity
    Mithraism
    religious mythologies
    dumuzi
     
  18. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    The mentions of Jesus in the Qu'ran and the Talmud are not historical sources, they are post-Christian references - in other words they mention Jesus because Christianity exists and has an influence.

    The Jesus reference in Josephus is clearly an interpolation. However there is a reference in Tacitus which is fairly sound. (Suetonious's "Chrestus" refers to a period 20 years after Jesus, so it's not him but more likely a slave - Chrestus was not an uncommon name for slaves apparently). Arguments that claim there never was a Jesus, simply because we have no exactly contemporary records of him, I find to be specious. It is far less likely for the early Christians to have created a person out of whole cloth just for the purpose of acting as a figurehead to their movement than it is that there was a genuine charismatic leader who attracted many followers. The Gospels of Mark and Matthew were written at a time when people were alive who would remember Jesus's lifetime and consequently whether there was such a leader or not. It's as if the historians of the year 5000 claimed that Hitler never existed, since all the accounts of his life that remain (the war movies, lets say) weren't made until after he was supposed to have died.
     
  19. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, Silas, it is nothing like that at all.
    If they did have reports of many historians that were Hitler's contemporaries...
    If those reports covered what was happening in other world leader's lives (including fairly detailed reports of both World Wars)...
    If those reports contained details of the accounts of much lesser figures of the days...
    If those reports spanned the entire life of Hitler and discussed events that were happening in the regions that he was living in...
    AND
    Those reports mentioned nothing at all about Hitler or his actions, except one single reporter's notes which later appeared to be a forgery.
    BUT
    Someone wrote a book claiming he existed.
    THEN it would be sort of like that.
     
  20. KennyJC Registered Senior Member

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    angellic being seems to have vanished

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    KennyJC:

    People have different bedtimes. Let's allow him atleast a day to respond.
     
  22. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

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    hmm?
     
  23. for my part, i wasnt saying jesus didnt exist just because there isnt a historical record of him, what im saying is that jesus was one of a long line of pretenders to the throne of Jerusalem, a professed miracle worker, a religious teacher, a person who lived his life in the pursuit of political spectacle that made it look as though he was fulfilling prophecy and therefore destined to bring the jewish people into a new era as their king by divine right. he wasnt the only one though, the ancient world was fraught with people like that, everyone from street peddlers selling medecine to religious healers claimed to be miracle workers and magicians. we already know of some contemporaries of jesus who are written about in history for similar acts, namely John the Evangelist, and Simon Magus. the point isnt that jesus didnt exist because history doesnt mention him, the point is that history doesnt mention him because what he was doing at the time didnt seem extraordinary. this runs contrary to the bibles presentation of jesus and his followers as the center of the world in a historical vaccuum.
     

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