Any aliens out there?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by John J. Bannan, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. orcot Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,428
    alpha centauri - not impossible but it's the closests star and we haven't heard anything from it.
    Sirius - only beteween 240-300 million years olds and already survived a star explosion that was 2 times heavier then the parent star at 30 AU (not LY) if it has any planets (left) their still warm and under constant bombardement with at max single celled lifeforms
    Delta Pavonis - potential but close by chouldn't we be able to detect something from that distance
    Altair- again a young star
    procyon - is compagnied by a white dwarf at 9AU's (white dwarfs ones blowed up and that's bad) it's also only 2 billion years old on earth their will still single celled organisms

    So on your list I end up with alpha centauri en delta pavonis who get the benefit of the doubt...
     
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  3. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Well in addtition to those it is always by chance that older larger red dwarfs stars would have advanced life, being mostly simular to the level of development of oour solar system.

    Lets look at Altair a star of the local group that was over head in the sky at my fathers death, a star that governs the subatomic behavior of neutrons. I have a tendancy to place my attention this star Altair.
    The star Altair a single star with a estimated spin of rotation of about 11 hours, having a rotation simular to jupiter.
    The star Altair requires the interactance of 452 to 678.9 stars to maintain stable constant chemistry, one of those stars is our sun.
    The Altair solar system has 16 major planets and 211 moons, 38 of those moons orbit as planets (being like mars and pluto and having fragile small orbiting bodies. The Periodic chart of atomis elements for the Altair system is WRC-1 thru WRC-227, the heaviest is element 227 with a AMU of 454. The Altair system has greater ionic nature probablly accounting for altairs faster rotation time, and also making for greater electron current, electron velocity on a planet the size of earth is 57,000 ft. per. second. or 10.7 miles per second.
    The gene index for the Altair solar system came in at 51,529 genes. the gene index is the estimated number of genes, intreval in exspression that would allow the complexity of chemistry (frequency of chemical reaction as to the square inch) that we find in higher intelligence on earth a simular system, its range is in the low direct chemical reactions (or constant chemical kinetic motion). where as a lesser intelligence or less development would have a higher more frequent gene frequency, active genes (fewer repeats in the dna source code of gentic bases). The constant chemical motion in the order of the intelligence is the primary kinetic motion givein thought, a life form of altair having intellgence would have nearly twice as many genes governing brain function and formation. The greater electron velocity of Altair seems to suggest that more of this gentic information is used to controll the snaptic flux of the brain (snaptic controll) which as a meausure of function seems to suggest a abltiy of physcial regenreation such as of limbs, and the occurance of metamorphis.

    Altairs shape suggest also that the planets are aligned in a narrow region ofthe stars equator almost all of them, as well a greater distance off which the planets span, possbile exsplaining the extra 38 moon orbits. As well the planets being equatorial in revolution around altair nearly all of them must have 4 season simular to earth.

    Altair system weight is 7.276582882 x 10^34 tons, this is the mass at which Altair carries with it, which includes it tug on other stars, as well this includes star dust, asteroids ect....The star it self has a weight of 1.763896085 x 10^30 tons, and the weight of planetary bodies is something like 3.175012954 x 10^28.

    I think that at 16 or so lightyears these guys could arrive, but I hear your assesment that Altair is to young of a star, i would say that life on earth is 50,000 years old or less, and that of our current formation is only about 13,000 years old.

    Alpha Centauri A was very interesting because it had what it take for the organization of life as we see it in self reproduction, our like antts and bees in
    formation.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
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  5. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Well that post is likely to get this thread transferred to pseudoscience, or the cesspool.
     
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  7. glenn239 Registered Senior Member

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    202
    The only thing that comes to mind is Paul Kennedy's Rise and Fall of The Great Powers. It's got nothing to do with UFO's (its about the passing of Empires and how they behave over the course of their existence). But if you imagine the dilemma I outline of limited technological solutions in a galactic environment of virtually endless security risks, they do seem to bear at least passing similarities to those faced by organizations in our own history.

    I had thought quite some years ago that perhaps there is something to the UFO phenonimon. If so, I was interested in a grounded hypothesis as to why they'd come here and do something so immature.

    In order to have an effect at such distances, I would presume the energy of the weapon has to be concentrated into a very narrow sector of space. That means accuracy is at a premium. But when you aim this sucker at the Jones thumbing their noses 4 light years away, you are using information from 4 years ago to try and predict where they will be 4 years from now. The Jones didn't get that annoying to you by not being clever! They know you are eventually going to shoot and they will 'salvo chase' - using their own reserves of energy to alter the path of their entire star system onto a new course that the targeting system of the beam weapon cannot detect until the energy of the change reaches its detectors - years after the beam was fired at the wrong intersection point.

    Assuming the Jones' star is clipping along at 300,000 mph (they've supercharged it because they know we're assholes), and that they alter course to any direction on an average of two years before the shot is taken, then the target area is 7.81 E+20 miles. Assuming our appropriately named Vonderbeamenmistelershriekenheimercannon accumulates delivered energy at the rate of 10,000 tons of antimatter per second, and that, say, I don't know, 500 tons of antimatter will effectively wipe that smug look off the Jones's face (a planet of 2,000 miles radius), then the beam's daily lethal area is 2.17E+13 square miles. The odds of a killing shot occurring on a daily basis are 2.78E-08. After 1,000,000 daily shots, the odds of having hit the target planet at 4 light years are less than 3%. After 273,000 years, the chances of at least one killing shot would be about 94%.

    As added insurance against quick/lucky blasts, maybe they'll hold their planet permenently on the far side of their sun, using it and any handy gas giants available as portable planetary shields (their sun laughs at 500 tons of antimatter). If they are really on top of things, maybe even a black hole somewhere along the line of fire. That sucker's gravity field would really screw up the targeting solution and randomize the direction of fire.

    Eventually, the Jones get a little fussed at all the attention and fire back - maybe their gizmo uses an event horizon as a beam shield to get close enough the system to deliver its attack.

    IMO, it's not so much whether the individual warhead has much of a chance of getting to the planet as it is that the consequences of it getting there are off the scale. Even if the attacker has to flop a straight flush for success, if he plays enough rounds of poker (builds enough warheads) he will eventually do it - the only way the defender can assure unending success in his endeavors is never to play the game, or to abandon planets altogether.

    The question I guess is what is the ultimate expression of life within the context of the laws of physics? Or more specifically, unless there is a tangible benefiet to becoming a walking advertisement for Bits and Bites, why make the change?

    The assumption I make is that there are real barriers imposed by the laws of the universe. But whatever they are, the rules will favor the attacker. In your example, the guys that have the fastest and mostest 'paradox machines' will eventually win, eventually resetting the last enemy 'paradox machine' in the alternative universe into a soda container.
     
  8. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    1,297
    That would be a good defence against high-energy beams; you could eventually reach such speeds using a Shkadov thruster.

    However such fast-moving stars are not observed, so it seems that alien civilisations (if any) do not find such manoeuvres necessary. Of course a smaller object could achieve such speed more easily than a star- it may be that fleets of starships lurk between the stars hiding from beam weapons.

    These fleets would be detectable every time they accelerated or otherwise emitted energy, so their positions would be known (within very large limits due to lightspeed delays, as you describe in your post). So they would need to maintain a kind of silent running between the stars. Secrecy is a good defence; it unfortunately limits the possibility of interaction between entities.

    As soon as a fleet approaches a defended system, light speed delays diminish, so the fleet becomes an easier target; the temptation is to withdraw into space and avoid contact.

    this is difficult to achieve in practice, (try holdin a planet stationary against gravity) and the attack may come from any direction in an interstellar civilisation.
    Nice idea - but you would need a black hole between the target and any possible enemy star- that requires a lot of mass. But a black hole has many uses- it could double as an energy generator.



    Agreed; lurking in interstellar space is safe, but eventually you run out of energy for life support.
    Benefits of becoming software include the possibility of rapid, complex and accurate processing, indefinitely extended duration, and backing up all the systems involved in maintaining an intelligent entity. If one copy is destroyed then other copies are available.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  9. Klitwo Registered Member

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    80
    Remember the movie 'Forbidden Planet' with 'Robby the Robot' and 'Dr. Morbius'? Altair-4 was the star system with the super advanced 'Krells' that once inhabited one of the planets there. I'm packin my bags and heading to Altair-4. If they are super-advanced, they must have a Starbucks there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Well then I'm there.
     
  11. Klitwo Registered Member

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    80
    Tasty Starbucks coffee at 'super' alien prices. What a deal. Altair-4 here I come.
     
  12. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    3,428
    coffee? Try the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. It fits the mood of the thread
    It says that the effect of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick
     
  13. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Orcot and to the intrested

    Alpha Centauri is are mearest star and a interesting one as we share it seems some familiarity given alpha centautris proxcimtiy.
    Alpla centauri a system of stars, mainly A and B i look at as causing and having differenece with earth as proxcima centuari shares a effect on both systems our suns and the alpha centauri systems, the four bodies almost one systems as is.

    Alpha centauri A has a periodic chart of 150 atoms KR-1 thru KR-150 the heavist atoms KR-150 has a AMU of 301.7.
    the electron velocity of alpha centauri is varible as it is a dubble star effected system, effected by gravitional force of Alpha Centauri B.
    The star alpha centauri A requires 300 to 450 stars to stablize atmoic chemistry for the system, but as it is a dubblle star system stable chemistry requires the stablity of Alpha centauri B which for requires 243 to 364 stars for stable subatonic chemistry.
    The solar system of alpha Centauri A has 11 planets and 139 moons, thier total weight is 2.094398212 x 10^28 tons.
    The weight of the star Alpha Centauri A is 1.16 x 10^30 tons, which has a drag and tug on stars, space dust ect.... of 4.8 x 10^34 tons.
    The gene index for this stars solar system is 22,500, but life on any planet in alpha Centauri A is under the intereatance of Aplah centauri B which produces a inset of gene formation with it gene index at 14,762. with this effect of Alpha Centauri B the gene index for Alpha Centauri A becomes 73,441.
    Alpha centauri B the effecting member of Alpha Centauri A it self Has a periodic chart of 121 atoms TR-1 thru TR-121 the heavist atom TR-121 with a AMU of 243.5.
    Aplah Centauri B solar system has 8 planets and 113 moons the their total weight 1.701698546 X10^28 tons.
    The star it self weighs 9.453880819 X 10^29 tons whit a total weight in drag and tug of 3.9 X 10^34 tons
    The gene index for alpha Centauri B is 14,762

    It seems clear that both alpha Centauri A and B have a lot of Stable isotopes, suggestiong a enert chemical nature for some atoms. the periodic chart of atoms may also hacve a few extra atoms that can stablize but have since know decayed. so the creation of certain atoms should be possible for a limited time.

    It appears that a life form on Alpha centauri A woul be a species that changes complete form of gives birth every 40 years, given varible electron velocity as a result of Alpha Centauri B effect of 14,762 gene index. The main genetic sequence of life on alaph Centauri A is still 22,500 genes exspressed for the Alpha cebtauri A system or the bodies that revolve around it, and the primary chemical energy of kinetics, Alpha Centauir B is a perment exspression of chemical energy sequence in motion that varies in peak every 80 years causing the cycle of traformation.
    The varible cycle suggest metamorhpism and a colony type sutructure simualr to ants and bees.
    To humans the alpha centuari system would probally appear as white, most enviroment would look white.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2007
  14. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    3,428
    the drink was mentioned in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it also inform the best way to rehabilite from one. Anyway
    You don't mind that I skip the bits that I don't understand do you?
    you claim rather large planetary numbres 150 and 120 respectivly.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    It is actualy a rather interesting quistion if a planet can exists at all in such a system and if the formation disks of the 2 suns colided during the formation of planets?
    11 AU is not so far between and altough it leaves a more or less stable habitable zone I chould wonder if any forming planet had enough mass avaible to form. It quit certain that none of the stars has more then 4 planets each.

    http://homepage.sunrise.ch/homepage/schatzer/Alpha-Centauri.html
     
  15. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Well Orcot
    let me list a few more that we mentioned as having the possiblity for life more advanced than earths solar system.

    Sirus
    Periodic Chart: 263 atoms DR-1 thru DR-263, Heavist atom DR-263 AMU 526.7
    Planets 18
    Moons 245
    Star weight 8.4 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 2.036220484 X 10^30 tons
    Planetary bodies 3.665196871 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 69,353
    Sirius B
    Periodic Chart: 66 atoms DLR-1 thru DLR-66, Heavist atom DLR-66 AMU 132.3
    Planets 5
    Moons 61
    Star weight 2.1 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 5.09055121 X 10^29 tons
    Planetary bodies 9.162992178 X10^27 tons
    Gene index 4,37.8225

    Sirius is a dubble star system resulting in a combined gene index of 108,241 and having many stable isotpoes, simular behavior to Alpha Centauri System.

    Eta Cassiopeia A
    Periodic Chart: 147 atoms CR-1 thru CR-147, Heavist atom CR-137 AMU 293.7
    Planets 10
    Moons 137
    Star weight 4.7 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 1.139313842 X 10^30 tons
    Planetary bodies 2.050764916 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 21,609

    Eta Cassiopiea B
    Periodic Chart: 79 atoms LR-1 thru LR-79, Heavist atom LR-79 AMU 158.8
    Planets 6
    Moons 73
    Star weight 2.5 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 6.06 X 10^29 tons
    Planetary bodies 1.090 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 6,241

    Eta Cassiopiea is also a dubble star as Sirius and Alpha Centauri and as well has a combined gene index, Gene Index 51,076 Eta Cassiopiea

    Delta Pavonis (Single Star)
    Periodic Chart: 145 atoms BR-1 thru BR-145, Heavist atom BR-145 AMU 291.3
    Planets 10
    Moons 135
    Star weight 4.6 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 1.115 X 10^30 tons
    Planetary bodies 2.007 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 21,184

    Alpha Centauri A
    Periodic Chart: 150 atoms KR-1 thru KR-150, Heavist atom KR-150 AMU 526.7
    Planets 11
    Moons 139
    Star weight 4.8 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 1.16 X 10^30 tons
    Planetary bodies 2.094398212 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 22,500
    Alpha Centauri B
    Periodic Chart: 121 atoms TR-1 thru TR-121, Heavist atom TR-121 AMU 243.5
    Planets 8
    Moons 113
    Star weight 3.9 X 10^34 tons
    Suns weight 9.45 X 10^30 tons
    Planetary bodies 1.701698547 X10^28 tons
    Gene index 14,762

    The Alpha Centauri system is a dubble star having a combined Gene Index of 73,441



    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2007
  16. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    3,322
    Here's the problem with your theory. The earth is only 4.5 billion years old. The universe itself is 100,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000,0,0000,000,0000,000000000000000000000000000,,000,0000,00,000000,000,0000,00000000,0000000000,0000000000000000000,000,000000,000000,0000,000,000000,00000,00,00000,000,0000,000,0000,00000000,000,00000,0000000,0000,0000,000,000,000000,000,000,000,00000,000,0,000000000,000,00000000000,,000000000000,000000,000000000000000000000,0000000,0000,000,000,0000,0000,000,000,000,0000,0000,000,000,000,000,,00,0,0000,0000,000000,,00000000,000,0000,00,00,,000000,000000000,,0000000000000000,00000000,000000000000,,000,00000000000,000000000000000000,000000,0000000,00000,,000000000,00000,,00000000,00000000000000000000000000000,000,0000,00000,00000,00000,00000,000,000,00,0000000,00 x 999 trillion years old.

    With the Universe itself being that much older then the Planet Earth. It's a fact that life has evolved in countless other Galaxies. Meaning we're not the furthest on the evolutionary scale. According to the Drake Equation.

    1) We have over 100 Billion Stars in the Milky way Galaxy.

    2) About 50% of the stars in our Galaxy have Planets around them.

    3) The number of planets capable per star to sustain life 1

    4) Of those planets, what percentage of them have evolving life forms 50%

    5) Out of those 50%, how many of those planets evolve intelligent lifeforms20%


    6) Out of the 20% of those planets that evolved intelligent life, how many of them can communicate20%

    7) The number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy 1000!

    And remember, there's over 50 billion galaxies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2007
  17. Klitwo Registered Member

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    80
    Do those %'s include how many life forms have come and gone in the universe and including our galaxy too?
     
  18. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    1,297
    Dwayne's posts are, as always, entertaining, but have no resemblance to reality.
     
  19. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

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    1,516
    Ganymede, those perentages are a bit optimistic, don't you think? Murphy's law probably comes into play in many different places in a life system trying to evolve, at least I'd imagine. Not being a scientist in this field and otherwise totally non-qualified to make this guess... I'm guessing maybe 5 to 10 civilizations of advanced intelligence life, only part of that which finds the call to become spacefaring.
     
  20. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    1,297
    I could easily imagine a thousand planets with intelligent life on them in our galaxy; but they would almost all be solitary civilisations, self-absorbed and self sufficient. Once a civilisation realises just how hard interstellar colonisation is, and how small the benefits would be to the home planet, they are quite likely to abandon the idea and concentrate on building a paradise in their own system.
     
  21. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    3,428
    And that's the reason why eskimos are yust a myth? I can't imagen that earth with living people on it could ever become a paradise and eventually their will be enough reasons to leaf our solar system if only with generation ships carring wormholes.

    Overall of the 10E22 to 10E24 stars stars in the universe I do believe that we will have contact with a other intiligent race within my life time I actually had some small talk with what proberly will be that first one, granted it was uter bullshit to make my girlfriend laugh and he was rather silent but I could see a future where they would revive a neanderthal I somewhat wonder if they where really that intiligent.
     
  22. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

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    6,938
    in my opinion, aliens are well aware of our existence but dont want anything to do with us.
     
  23. Klitwo Registered Member

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    80
    I guess that explains all of the alien radio signals we have picked up from deep space over the years coming from advanced alien worlds. Yea....Right! What radio signals?
     

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