Antivax: Behind the Stupid (and Other Notes)

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Actually, Bells already has, but that's not actually the wilful behavior I'm referring to. I suppose you could try pretending you never heard of a measles party or, in this case, a pox party. I suppose it's possible you could be a passionate advocate in this subject yet be completely unaware that this practice persists to at least some degree and it scares the hell out of doctors whenever they hear about it. I suppose it's possible to accept that it isn't really stubborn trolling but actual dangerous ignorance.

    You continue to conflate people who simply aren't up on their vaccinations with wilful abstention.

    I've tried to address it. You've refused the discussion.

    I've even given an example having to do with a prison facility. You have chosen repeatedly to not address this discussion while continuing to advocate fallacious equivalence.

    Your effort shoehorn everything into some mysterious propaganda template really is futile.

    Continuing to press your change of subject back to the template. Continuing to troll. Continuing to perform antivax advocacy. See, people have noticed that you can't actually discuss the subject at hand. Not that anyone knows why, but every sentence in #120↑ above strains to change the subject. Back to antivax advocacy. I even asked you to specifically consider the issue at hand↑, and you refused.

    You're clearly off topic. You're clearly trolling. You're clearly advocating harmful behavior.

    You say, "They are simply weighing the risk of jeopardizing their kids health with vaccines against the risk of them getting sick".

    No, that's not what they're doing. They are refusing the risk assessment for the sake of identity politics; it is antisocial behavior.

    But you might notice that this thread opened with consideration of someone who (A) was antivax, (B) changed their mind because her kids got really, really sick, and (C) found herself alienated by friends who would rather she not protect her children from future episodes of extraordinarily dangerous but easily preventable disease.

    And you? You can't get past (A). You're just running antivax advocacy. Would you prefer us believe this is because you're not smart enough to comprehend the issue, or because you just like being that kind of disruptive, antisocial agent?

    Recognize, Magical Realist, that most around here did not arrive online yesterday. They've been around at least a few virtual blocks, met at least a few trolls putting cardboard over the gutters to call a bridge, and they're generally neither fooled nor amused by this cheap, template advocacy so reminding of diverse notorieties.

    You do not get to conflate circumstantially unvaccinated with the wilful abstention known as antivax. You need to stop pushing that false equivalence. As the issue in Arizona reminds, the only way to close the gap is to make it mandatory.

    Try it this way: Even your argument about flu vaccine―

    ―reeks of specific antivax. I can cite a specific circumstance: It was the prior season's vaccine, reporting between seventeen and thirty-five percent efficacy, indicated for other people but not me, and other circumstances I was not engaging in. I have no problem skipping out on that vaccine for myself. To the other, if I'm working a classroom or recognize a proximal health concern like Bells noted I now have circumstantial reason to go get that shot.

    Oh, hey, how 'bout you? I'm not on PrEP; I can't afford it. I don't know how I'm going to feel when it gets to be like birth control―and it will be covered by insurance at that point―and gay men opt out for any but medical reasons. Which points back to an issue―health insurance―that, you know, you decided to skip out on in order to post template advocacy.

    You're not even putting any effort into your dangerous advocacy.
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  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    I noted your whining OP. I recognized the visceral need to turn antivaxxers into therapeutic punching bags. Consider: if a woman defected from a group of provaxxer friends to not vaccinate her kids, she would be just as ostracized and shamed by them. If not even moreso. The need to demonize ideologically different groups works both ways.

    Myth #5: “Parents who don’t vaccinate are all ‘pro-disease,’ on the lookout for a measles or chickenpox party.” Are you kidding?

    Fact: Non-vaccinating parents fear disease too – they just fear the vaccines more. Yes, there is a very tiny (and yes, truly crazy) minority looking to infect their kids with diseases, and if you hear of or see one, please call child protective services. But the measles party craze is way overblown. Consider Tara Norman, of Montgomery County, Maryland, a mother of two who started, then stopped, vaccinating her children because of concerns about her family’s health. She had a relative who died of tetanus (and her children are up to date on tetanus) and a friend who died of meningitis in college. “I’m terrified of meningitis,” she told me, “but I wouldn’t give [my son] the meningitis shot because it doesn’t protect against all of the strains. Am I a little worried when they’re in college? I really am worried, but I’m more worried about giving them the shot.” And from a risk perception point of view – based on what we perceive, regardless of whether it’s reflects actuality or not – this rationale isn’t far-fetched, according to David Ropeik, a former director of risk communication at the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. He points out that fearing vaccines more than diseases is rooted in psychological phenomena. “The diseases seem to be gone,” he told me. “Why take even a small risk with vaccines to protect a child against a disease that doesn’t appear to be a threat at all?” Of course, “appear” is the key word there – the diseases aren’t gone (if they were, we’d stop using the vaccine, as we did with smallpox), and the risk of disease is greater than the risk of its corresponding vaccine, but Ropeik points out that “the public health folks did a poor job of keeping awareness of the disease high.” And so, when risks of vaccines appear greater than risks of a disease, parents like Norman are making a rational decision based on the information and perceptions they have. So no, non-vaccinating parents are not opening their doors and welcoming disease into their midst.

    I’m just getting started, folks, because there is a lot of misinformation out there about parents who may not vaccinate, but are doing the best they can to take care of their children based on the information they have. Here are more misconceptions about non-vaccinating parents in part two and part three."----

    Now...if you are really wondering why I don't respond much less even take seriously your castigating diatribes against antivaxxers and now me, I don't engage haters. When people go low, I go high. And so it goes and has gone here since 2011 when I first started posting here. I don't even respond to Bells anymore what with her rage blackouts about me and my past posts. I've got better things to do with my time than defending myself against ranting flaming posters too apoplectic to make a coherent point..
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
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  5. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Here we go with the both sides theory and false equivalence at its best.

    Can you not see that ostracizing someone for not posing a threat is nowhere near the same as excluding someone that actually has the potential to harm others? Or are you going to pretend you can't figure this out?

    Further, on your assertion that "no one wants other kids to get sick":

    Some parents in California are reportedly considering hosting “measles parties” — social gatherings where unvaccinated children can come into contact with infected kids — to build up their children’s natural resistance to the infectious disease.
    Julie Schiffman, who has chosen not to vaccinate her two children, told KQED’s California Report that she was recently approached by a friend who invited her to a measles party. The friend offered to arrange a play date with a child who currently has measles. Schiffman turned her down.

    California health officials and doctors are strongly urging parents not to intentionally expose their kids to infectious diseases after news broke that anti-vaccination parents may be throwing “measles parties” so that their kids can get the disease out of the way and gain immunity.

    “It’s the worst idea I’ve heard in a long time,” said Kathleen Jordan, a doctor who specializes in infectious disease at Dignity Health Saint Francis Memorial Hospital in San Francisco. “Measles kills people, and I can’t believe anyone would send their child to a party knowing that.”
    You can argue that they have good intentions here (along with the road to hell) but you cannot argue that their motives do not include deliberately getting kids sick. Well, maybe you can...
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  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Now you're circulating a ridiculous urban legend. I bet you believed Satanists were abducting kids in the 1980's too.
  8. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    The "Urban Legend" part refers to whether the Health Department issued a warning to parents not to attend such parties - they didn't. That does not mean that such gatherings never occurred.

    Now, I can't WAIT for you to complain about lack of sufficient compelling evidence for such "parties" - it will be a truly amusing objection coming from the UFO / Bigfoot crowd....
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Uh no..the urban legend is that these parties were going on which was based on the hysterical reaction of the frothing online vaccinazis to a woman's statement on a radio broadcast..It was pure baloney to begin with..

    "All claims were chronologically similar: parents in California began hosting measles parties after the outbreak began, and in response to that circumstance California's Department of Public Health was forced to issue a public health warning to parents advising against this foolish "new trend." Although that seemed plausible to many readers, a few initial inconsistencies were present.

    While measles and chicken pox were both at one time common childhood illnesses, a vaccine for the latter virus is a fairly recent development. As such, measles was rarer in recent decades than chicken pox, and measles eradication was declared in the U.S. in 2000. Only 103 people to date have contracted measles in California in the 2015 outbreak, hardly a number sufficient for measles parties to be a real trend of any description. By contrast, entire communities of children contracted chicken pox in recent memory, and infected youngsters were not uncommon in the not-too-distant past.

    Furthermore, all iterations of the claim lacked any substantive evidence of the existence of measles parties outside anyone's imaginations. No timeframe was supplied in any of the articles or segments, the locality in which they purportedly occurred ("the Bay Area") was broad, and even vague references to any specific incidents involving a real-life measles parties were absent in these reports. (The rumors also resembled urban legends about teenage sex parties involving rainbow bracelets, which have circulated intermittently for at least a decade and are largely baseless.)"-----
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    For some reason, this ''debate'' reminds me of when Charlie Sheen recently came out saying he has HIV, and hadn't told a slew of women he had slept with over the years, that he had HIV. Even if he used condoms every single time, those women had a right to know that the person they were sleeping with, had a deadly virus transferable through sex. If someone is a public health risk, and not getting vaccinated makes one more at risk of harming others, that should trump a person's right to choose to opt out of vaccinations. You really shouldn't have a ''right'' to become a public health risk because of your personal beliefs and /or religion.
  11. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Presumably, except for a very small fraction of some who can get vaccinations, all the other kids in school are vaccinated. So they aren't really a public health risk. And plus they keep their kids at home when they get sick. I know my mom did at least.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  12. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, none of this stuff actually occurs, right MR? I mean, who could possibly be that stupid?

    For more than two decades, Craig Stellpflug has been helping parents build up their children’s immune systems.

    Parents reach out to him through his Facebook page – “Let’s Have a Chickenpox Party” – and he matches up healthy children for a playdate with ones who have the virus. He receives inquiries about mumps and measles, but chickenpox is the most common, resulting in 10 to 20 requests a day. When children get together, he recommends that the sick kids bring a favorite toy, then mingle so everyone can leave with something they didn’t have when they got there: an infection.

    “I champion this specific cause because I am a strong believer in the body's ability to take care of itself,” Stellpflug says. “When we give the body what it really needs – proper nutrition, rest, and exercise – the immune system develops an amazing ability to combat diseases ... without interference from vaccines.”​

    Emphasis mine.
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    From your own article:

    "Stellpflug tells U.S. News that he’s had inquiries 15 to 20 families who want to expose their children. Six of those are actively seeking playdates with infected partners, but they haven’t been able to find any.

    In February, rumors surfaced about measles parties occurring in California. Though the rumors turned out to be false, California Department of Health spokeswoman Anita Goretold Reuters that the agency "strongly recommends against the intentional exposure of children to measles as it unnecessarily places the exposed children at potentially grave risk and could contribute to further spread." The latest CDC figures show that 178 children and adults from 17 states and the District of Columbia have been infected with the measles, and the virus is still spreading."

    So sorry..still no parties going on. Keep looking though. lol!
  14. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    It wasn't about vaccinations.

    i.e. off topic
  15. Bells Staff Member

    Mod Note

    It isn't an urban legend.

    In the US, some parents have taken to getting their sick children to lick or suck on lollipops and they then send them to other anti-vaxxer families to suck on lollies to pass the disease to their children.

    A federal prosecutor is warning parents against trading chicken pox-laced lollipops by mail in what authorities describe as misguided attempts to expose their children to the virus to build immunity later in life.

    The warning came after media reports surfaced about a multi-state ring of parents, wary of vaccinations that prevent the disease, who were swapping lollipops licked by a sick child in a modern day incarnation of a chicken pox party.

    In those so-called parties, parents purposely put sick children together with healthy children in order to spread the ailment and build immunity without having the children vaccinated. This new form of party shares the disease anonymously and long-distance.

    "Sending a virus or disease through the U.S. mail (and private carriers) is illegal. It doesn't matter if it crosses state lines," said David Boling, public information officer for the Attorney in Nashville.

    "Also, it is against federal law to adulterate or tamper with consumer products, such as candy."

    Boling said the issue came to light after a television "news report out of Phoenix that involved a Nashville woman that was shipping and receiving adulterated products."


    The transport and sale of contaminated items has been linked to a Facebook group called "Find a Pox Party in Your Area," which helps people anonymously arrange for the swapping and sale of contaminated items.

    "There are a substantial number of people involved in it," Boling said, referring to the ring.

    Nashville-based U.S. Attorney Jerry Martin has been outspoken on the matter because he wants to warn "folks that want to continue to engage in this kind of activity that they are certainly exposing themselves to criminal prosecution," said Boling, who would "neither confirm (nor) deny existence of an investigation."


    The CDC's Harpaz said symptoms of chicken pox aren't noticeable for "10 days to 21 days when you are exposed." But that doesn't mean children aren't contagious.

    Children taking chemotherapy or other medications that affect the immune system are among those who can't take the vaccine and would be at risk if exposed to infected children.

    "You could infect them and kill them," said Jones. "That's murder."

    In Australia, for example, "pox parties" are held. One woman put a huge post on Facebook, inviting anti-vaxxer families to her house after her child came down with chicken pox.

    “My son has a full case of chickenpox. We are all home together for the week,” she wrote.

    “If anyone wants to clear this bug now and get it over with please come to Brisbane and visit us. We are here to infect only those who want it!”

    There were reportedly many responses to this invitation, including one from a woman who claimed that her kids had already been exposed to the chickenpox virus, but that she was waiting for an invitation to mingle with some who had measles!

    This isn't an urban legend. This sort of stupidity actually happens all the time. And it is dangerous and can have deadly consequences.

    One woman in Texas had to be investigated after a complaint by a rival group of anti-vaxxers reported her for hosting a chicken pox party. What offended the rival group was this post by the woman in question:

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    These people operate on Facebook, in small groups under various names. And they are dangerous.

    Fever yes. Cough and runny nose? No. I don't know anyone who stays home for a runny nose or even a cough.

    The point is that parents will usually send their kids to school or daycare or out to play with a runny nose, thereby risking infecting other children. Not all children have a fever at the start. My young cousin came down with a mild case of the chicken pox when she was 4 years of age, and the only symptom she had prior to the rash, was a mild headache, which she was given baby panadol for and felt fine afterwards. They didn't think to take her to the doctors that afternoon, because she had been running around in the sun all day, and they thought she hadn't been drinking enough water, so gave her some baby panadol when she complained that her forehead hurt. The rash came out the next day. She was vaccinated, but someone at her daycare had it, came to daycare, and infected several children, including her. She had a very mild case because she was vaccinated. Two other children who were not vaccinated ended up in hospital for a week because they were so sick with it. Those who were vaccinated and still got it, had very mild cases. The child who attended daycare who had it, just had the sniffles. Passed it on to others.

    This is why when my kids were at daycare, we only sent them to daycare centers that had a vaccination policy, whereby unvaccinated children were not allowed to attend. For a few reasons, principally their health and wellbeing, but also because I have never had chicken pox and while vaccinated, as an adult, it can be quite bad even when vaccinated. My adult cousin contracted it as an adult and nearly died. My father caught the measles from me when I was a child (I was born in a very poor country where vaccination for such things were not always available) and he became very ill, ended up in hospital for 2 weeks and it ended up making him sterile.

    The reason my kids will never have to have the small pox vaccine is because it was eradicated through a successful world wide vaccination program. Diseases that are easily preventable with vaccines.. The danger of many of these childhood diseases should not be laughed at or mocked as you keep doing and have been warned about repeatedly.

    Your position on this issue is dangerous, MR. Exceptionally dangerous. Mocking people who show caution about these issues as you have been, trolling and flaming them is unacceptable. Reporting others when they call out your dangerous behaviour is, well, ridiculous. Your position and advocating of anti-vaxxer positions as you have been can have deadly consequences. Have you actually considered that at all? Dismissing the contagious nature of these diseases by declaring that people with a runny nose tend to stay home (when they do not), as though this negates the danger and the risk they pose to others, is downright dishonest.

    People are in this thread, discussing the social aspect of anti-vaxxer groups and the dangers they pose to society and those around them. I would suggest you stop trolling this thread with your rank defense of anti-vaxxers. The reason being is very simple. It can have deadly consequences. So stop. If you don't stop, you will be moderated. I am happy to put up with a lot of crap on this site. But what I and others will not allow is the peddling of dangerous ideology that can and will impact on the health and safety of others in this way. Have I made myself clear enough for you now?
  16. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    I inadvertently came across this whilst reading of a $916 million loss that sees Donald Trump exempt from paying taxes, or something like that...



    Excerpt: Measles is the fifth vaccine-preventable disease to be eliminated from the Americas, according to the World Health Organization. The region eradicated smallpox in 1971, poliomyelitis in 1994, and rubella and congenital rubella syndrome in 2015.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”
    George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings
  18. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

    What country do you live in where this happens? Where is this magic country where nobody works?
  19. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

    WTF is this supposed to mean? You believe all kinds of alien conspiracy theory shit, but you won't believe in reports of actual people doing plain old physical things?
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Wow!!! An excellent well researched post and information that is revealed. I certainly was ignorant of such rank obvious stupidity particularly in my own country Australia.
    Let me add, that even without the revelations and stupidities you have revealed, I support totally your post and this idiotic peddling of dangerous crap, and the active and/or placid support of such dangerous nonsense.
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Many racist, fanatical and other dangerous propaganda and claims by some, should indeed be curtailed. Hitler for example...And I would suggest so to would Martin in that regard and also probably yourself for daring to take such comment/quote out of context.
    Let me add.....
    “People often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste when it's served up.”
    George R.R. Martin, A Clash of Kings
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member


    "What the fuck is this supposed to mean! You believe in aliens and shit!!! Goddamn it!!! This is unbearable!!!! People are "doin things"!!!! Where's my medication?!"

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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    You are approaching incoherency here MR - what makes this topic different is that you personally might sway someone over to the anti-vax point of view with your comments. Have you thought of that?

    This is not an abstract and harmless issue like the existence of small green men intent on anally probing Kim Kardashian - this is real life, with real life implications. It's one of the very few times when I object to your contrariness - generally, I support your right to freedom of expression and have said so in many other threads.

    However, in this case, please stop with the crap - I have a feeling that you are fully aware that vaccination is the best course for 99.9% of the population. You are not stupid, you can read and interpret the science as well as the next layperson - stop advocating an irresponsible position on this topic! Pretty please...
    Kristoffer likes this.

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