Antivax: Behind the Stupid (and Other Notes)

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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  3. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Lots of reasons children may not be vaccinated. Careless parenting, poverty, allergic reactions. Doesn't mean they were due to antivaxxers. And did you know the infancy whooping cough vaccine only lasts ten years. I can see alot of unvaccinated kids because of that.
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    In parts of Australia, failure for parents to immunise their chidren, means they cannot attend pre-school kindergartens, unless a valid medical exemption is forthcoming.
    Social security payments can also be curtailed.
    Conscientious Objectors is not considered a valid reason.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    Firstly, it has been found that people who do not vaccinate their children tend to be wealthy and/or are more affluent.

    Secondly, I don't think I would put it down to just careless parenting. More often than not, parents make this decision deliberately. It is rarely the case of parents who simply forget or don't bother. The anti-vaxxer movement and groups show that these people literally set out to not vaccinate.

    Thirdly, allergic reactions. There are also other reasons to not vaccinate, such as children with compromised immune systems. And here is the kicker and what makes anti-vaxxers downright evil. The reason for everyone who can vaccinate to vaccinate is to protect those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons - such as allergies or compromised immune systems. Herd immunity. I didn't vaccinate my children just for their own safety. I vaccinated them for the safety of other children around them, some of whom are unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons.

    I'll put it this way. Say you have a young child who is in remission from a childhood cancer. Due to your child's compromised immune system, you are unable to complete his or her vaccine's schedule. So your child has not been able to be immunised for measles or mumps, or something like chicken-pox. Your young child is unwell, and you, as his or her parent wants to take them to Disneyland. However you cannot, because of the exceptionally high degree of chance that your child will come into contact with someone who has the measles because that child's parent deliberately decided to not vaccinate their child and there is a high portion of the population in the area who deliberately refuse to vaccinate their children, thereby destroying herd immunity and putting your child's life in danger in the process.

    Ya, it's called getting adult booster shots. What? You haven't had it?

    When I had cancer, my whole family went and got booster shots. When my father was diagnosed with cancer, I went and got a booster shot for his protection.

    You know, it's about caring for your loved ones and fellow human beings who are at risk. You should give it a go sometime.
     
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..I don't keep up with booster shots and have no idea what ones I require. And guess what: at least 40% of american adults are the same way. That means all this hype about antivaxxers murdering babies by spreading disease isn't even relevant when you got millions more adults walking around just as vulnerable to diseases and probably spreading them as well. So I hate to rain on your hate parade, but antivaxxers hardly register on the radar when it comes to spreading disease.

    "Adult vaccination coverage remains low for routinely recommended vaccines, with coverage rates for most vaccines falling between 20 and 60 percent. By comparison, in 2012, 92.8 percent of children aged 19-35 months were fully vaccinated against poliovirus; coverage rates for other vaccines ranged from 82 to 92 percent." - See more at: http://www.healthmap.org/site/disea...zed-and-why-we-need-them#sthash.5FtOjog8.dpuf
     
  11. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    So... you're saying that because adults are walking around without vaccinations, that means we shouldn't vaccinate young children who are more vulnerable to infectious diseases?
     
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..I'm saying you can't blame antivaxxers (9% of the population) for spreading these diseases when 40% of the adult population are walking around unvaccinated with booster shots.
     
  13. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    And yet if it wasn't for the anti-vaxxers, the children wouldn't be at risk no matter how many unvaccinated adults are walking around.
     
  14. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    From catching diseases from the 40% of unvaccinated adults. Damn murderers. See how that works?
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Only you are saying "murder" at this point. Your straw man, your problem.

    After all, I'll take manslaughter. Negligent homicide. You know that damn joke about Republicans, "Pro-life until you're born"?

    And there's more going on, here, than just death.

    → How did we manage five thousand known pertussis cases in Washington state in 2012? Our one state accounted for over eighteen percent of known pertussis cases in the nation. More than just lives, try to consider quality of life. Actual pertussis really, really sucks, and can do serious damage. The idea of how much this all costs society monetarily does have some implications on quality of life, as well. And this is the thing: Okay, so there are a few earthquakes now and then. And Tahoma will speak again, oh, whenever; next ten-thousand or so, sometime in there. But, really, on the west side we don't have much that will poison or eat you. For years our big curse was the power grid, but now its seasonal flooding in areas other than right where I live; for me it's still the fact that thirty-five knots means the power will likely fail. However, we do face a human challenge, these strange clusters of identity antivax. And that's how we end up with five thousand known pertussis cases, accounting for something like eighteen and a half percent of the national toll.​

    And, by the way, their decisions to risk their own children can endanger other people, as well. And in a way it's really almost morbid comedy, because the same people who fret that vaccines aren't actually effective are inflating the risk that their fear comes true. Nor need we rely on such fearful abstraction; pay attention to what people are telling you:

    The children are still unvaccinated and she boasted to a mutual friend that they had contracted chicken-pox and had passed it on, giving children "natural immunity". That these poor kids would not have contracted the disease if they had vaccinated their children apparently escapes them. One child at the school was in remission for leukemia and had to be kept from school during the outbreak. And this couple still failed to understand or care that their lack of vaccination are endangering the lives of other children.

    (Bells↑)

    Look, this is chosen behavior. This isn't like being born with dark skin, or no Y chromosome. This isn't about why your brain just doesn't respond to the idea of sticking your dick in some woman's hoohah with the same enthusiasm it affords the idea of sucking every last seed out of that phat, pretty as sin cockadoodledilly over there.

    This isn't even about, "I don't wanna take my medicine!"

    This is about, "I want to put other people at risk for the sake of my identity!"

    Seriously, questions of murder or mere negligence aside, you might also want to be careful how you treat the idea of a minority.

    It's even easier to choose to be an antivaxxer than it is to choose to be a cop. Hell it's even easier to choose to be an antivaxxer than it is to choose to be a Christian.

    Think of it this way: It's easier to be an antivaxxer than it is to be a wanker, as the latter requires the effort of actually doing something.
     
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No it isn't. It is about any normal parent trying to protect their own child from what they believe are lifelong side effects of vaccines. These aren't immoral people. They're not even being selfish. They are the same as you and me. They just believe something wrong due to some circulated misinformation.

    Myth #10: “Parents who don’t vaccinate are all selfish narcissists.” Nope.


    Fact: Most non-vaccinating parents care about all children, but they worry about their own child’s safety. Are they looking out for their child first? Absolutely they are, and any parent who says they’re not doing the same is a liar or a bad parent. (Yes, I went there.) We all look after our own children first. “Keeping our kids alive keeps the species going, one of the deepest genetic imperatives of all species,” Ropeik told me. Remember Tara Norman, non-vaccinating mother of two from Montgomery County, Maryland? She told me the only reason she vaccinated initially, despite feeling uneasy about it, was that she was not a selfish person. “They [her doctors] made me feel like I was selfish if I didn’t continue,” she said. “I understand there are children who are too young to vaccinate or immunosuppressed. I understand that if there’s an outbreak, I will have to keep my kid home. But I’m not [vaccinating] anymore, and don’t tell me I’m a bad person because I’m not.”

    Are there selfish narcissists who don’t vaccinate their kids and don’t care about others? Yes, there are. And I’m sure there are more than a handful of selfish narcissists who vaccinated their kids but send their kid to class with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich despite a classmate’s peanut allergy. Parents come in all stripes, and there’s not data that more selifishness lives among non-vaccinating than vaccinating parents. Further, alienating a non-vaccinating parent doesn’t solve anyone’s problem, Salmon points out. “If they don’t vaccinate their children, are they a bad person? No. They may be misinformed, they may have reached a different conclusion based on the evidence than I have reached, and the science doesn’t support their concerns, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person,” he said. “Most people who actively refuse, they do so because they think that’s best for their child.” Frankly, that’s our job as parents. We’re all doing the best we can."----http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2015/02/18/15-myths-about-anti-vaxxers-debunked-part-2/#7a5f138eb8a0
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Antivaxxers cause unvaccinated adults.
    Antivaxxers enable the spread of disease.
    I agree. Some are merely ignorant or gullible.
     
  18. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Manslaughter then.
     
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe negligence...maybe that's why they just got 5 years..
     
  20. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Still bad.
     
  21. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    This topic seems to make the rounds on science forums almost every year. The posts really haven't changed very much and it seems quite obvious to me that it should be a government problem, because they have a responsibility to protect all their citizens. If laws are passed that require children to be vaccinated if they don't have a medical reason not to be and those required vaccinations be paid for by the government so that the parents that have a limited income won't have any excuse not to have their kids vaccinated. Give the laws some adequate enforcement penalties such as fines, keep kids out of schools and even removing kids from their homes in extreme cases. Within one generation the problem will be resolved.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Actually, yeah, in the issue put before you, yes, they are being selfish for demanding that their antivax beliefs disrupt other people's participation in society by endangering other people. In the case described to you, they insist on it.

    Naturally, you respond with fluffy, wishful generalization intended to mitigate people's perception of dangerous behavior.
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously some people to be noticed, must be controversial...no matter how notorious that maybe.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    [Particularly on a science forum]
     

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