Anti-religion internet memes

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by StrangerInAStrangeLand, Sep 4, 2018.

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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    To be frank, I'm too tired to give a long winded explanation, so I'll let it suffice to say that a lot was covered when Christ said Tetelestai.

    It isn't about cherry picking bits and pieces, so much as it is remembering that these are the words written by Man from that time; times change, but the Commandments, the final laws, make just as much sense today as they did then.

    To that I say I am sorry you feel that way... and would challenge you to prove your statement that Christ has not, in fact, returned. It is an interesting thought experiment.

    I am concerned that you would abandon your trust in a child simply because they did not keep a singular promise - after all, they are but a child, and should be taught rather than simply cast aside for such a mistake.
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    I find great difficulty it accepting laws that tell you to kill another human because they fail to follow the sabath thing.
    And I dont think if we were to go through the various laws one by one you could support many of them.
    Well I think the burden of proof could reasonably be shifted to the person suggesting JC has returned.

    It probably would be world wide news ...maybe I missed it☺
    We are not talking aboit trust in a child for a start.

    We are talking about, as you view it, an unfulfilled promise made by God himself.

    Anyways I am happy that you can take something that should be thrown out and make use of it by recycling it and ignoring the problems and find it fits the way you want to view reality.

    You have a nice day and thank you for being direct in your answers.

    I find such an approach most refreshing.

    Alex
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Post 87 precis.

    An aspect of the topic "anti-religion internet memes".
    There are a few, and some do harm imho.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    That looks to be a response to SIASL's comment claiming "Love Thy Neighbor" only applied to those of their own people - referring specifically to Mark 12:31 - "The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

    Add in John 13:34-35 - "So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples."

    I'm not sure where the idea that this only applied to other Christians, or others of their own country/colour/et al arrived, but the generally accepted meaning was for us to love everyone regardless of race, colour, religion, etc... even those that wrong us and commit crimes should be loved, though that does not absolve them of the laws of their government(s).
     
  8. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    May I ask - what of the Ten Commandments tells you to kill someone who does not follow the sabbath?

    Ah, except I am not suggesting he has - I am merely asking you to prove that he hasn't. Sure, I cannot prove God exists, but neither can you prove he does not and, as we know, lack of evidence is not evidence to the contrary.

    Actually. in all honesty, with how badly things have been misremembered and whitewashed, Christ would likely be put into a straight jacket were he to return. A lot of people imagine Jesus to be white... I mean, he was born in what today would be the Middle East - he would most likely have more physical resemblance to Osama Bin Laden than Ted Neely.


    So... one standard for one, and a different for another, then?

    Quite a backhanded comment there haha.

    As one who was raised in a church, lost his faith, and spent several years figuring out just what he believed... yeah, I prefer the direct approach haha.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I did not say it was there but it is somewhere isnt it?
    Or did I dream it up?
    Give me some time and I will see what the rest of the population says...I expect we would get a list of folk who would believe he has...
    I think the proof you ask for would be difficult ... you dont know something that I dont ..like he will be back next week and you are setting me up☺
    Certainly lack of evidence etc etc ... The lack of evidence is however of some concern.
    If the relationship exists I certainly would expect more...maybe for you you have more evidence than you need.
    I wonder if anyone will ever really know.
    If he is all that he is claimed to be I expect he already knows...I thought that was part of the deal...he knows all or God knows all and each are the other ... how could he not know what to expect...I cant imagine him turning up and its all news to him.
    Who does?
    What are their names?
    Like most things we can only guess what he looked like...was he real?
    Well I expect you would think he was...was he who he claimed to be? I expect you wpuld think he was...say he had some terrible scar ...would we be told or would they not have mentioned his scar.
    Who knows?
    Are there any statues or paintings from his time...head on a coin sortta stuff.
    Absolutely.
    A child can not be guilty of a crime ...clearly law makers recognise there is a difference...
    And why wouldnt you.
    I appologise it was not met to be a backhander but I can see how you could take it that way.
    I was trying to rationalise how one could sift through it all and take away something positive really.

    I like many approaches suggested in religion and if I thought I could plead "its in the bible" there could be a few neighbours starting their mowers too early in for a shock ☺
    I do like peace and supporting positive emotions but thats all I need, thanks keep the rest.
    Well all good then.

    Alex
     
  10. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I do not believe that the New Testament condones killing - it does, however, state that one must also follow the laws of their government:



    Ultimately, though, that is irrelevant isn't it - that's what makes the argument so difficult to make.


    There is, actually, a fair bit of evidence. The fact that (I believe) every major religion has a "Great Flood" story, for example. The fact that they have found bits and pieces of archaeological evidence that corresponds with what is written in the Bible.

    Oh, I'm not saying He wouldn't know it was going to happen. Just, that's where Humanity is right now.

    Surely you are just being pedantic with this question? Have you ever looked upon a depiction of Christ painted on a window at a Church or Cathedral? Or, perhaps, seen a movie where he is depicted? Or even a simple Google search?

    Who knows? Archeologists, scholars, anyone who bothers to read, for example, would know.

    Actually, in certain instances, children can (and have) been found, and held, guilty of crimes.
    As an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slender_Man_stabbing

    I don't know - you used the example:

    What did you mean here, then?

    As you wish.

    Here is an interesting thought experiment for you:

    If there is no God, then by what standard is Moral behavior to be judged, and what reason do we have to be Moral; if all there is is this life, and we die and that's it... what compelling reason is there for someone to strive for a greater good than simple personal self-gratification, short of presuming humans to be naturally self-giving (which history shows quite clearly they are not)?
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Like a thief in the night. Are we certain we would miss 144,000 people? Even more so as some significant portion of them would already be dead.

    Comparatively, that's the problem with arbitrary selection of standards; at this point, it doesn't matter what I think of that variation on strict literalism because I can just as easily choose the arbitrary response that you wouldn't necessarily know if you were already caught up in the Matrix.

    • • •​

    I am very interested in the answers; this has always been a confounding question around here.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    It is one I've spent time contemplating, and one that I did not arrive to a satisfactory answer on. Sure, we can hold ourselves to the standards of Mankind... but yikes, that's setting the bar rather low, isn't it...
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    As I understand it ... the OT is seen as replaced by the NT and those finding fault suggest that JC said that was not the case, and, in their call he said he endorsed the OT.
    I know there is more to it but hopefully you understand how someone like me for example would focus upon that ... I have said it before but honestly it could do with a tidy up, the good book, ...edit it and make it consistent perhaps...
    I just get drawn to things that need fixing.
    Now thats good.
    I may question and even reject your evidence but it is your evidence and I can respect that.
    Most humans lived on flood plains and still do ... we had a big flood in 74 where the church steeple went under..I didnt see it but my mate said his sister works with someone who saw it...
    My point is flood stories are going to be common because floods are common and big floods are memorable...I can tell you many of my great flood experiences...
    Anyways your evidence.
    Thats more than I have ever got from Jan.
    Thats all I wanted to hear frim someone a few words that paints the picture as they see it.
    Without getting out a book I dont have anymore I think it goes this way...children eight and younger are incapable of crime as they can not form the necessary intent.
    Alex
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    If you are really interested in an answer see if you can find Matt Delahunty on utube he has a good answer.

    I do think humans are capable of gaining a decent moral code independant of religion and I would think that could be demonstrated and that we could point to folk who have done it an other way sucessfully.

    I suppose what may be the reality is there are folk out there who may go crazy morals wise if not for their belief that hell is always only a bad decision away.

    But bad deeds produce bad things which in itself is good motivatiin to do the right thing.
    Alex
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry you have lost me.
    Alex
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure where/why some say that Christ claims the New Covenant doesn't supersede the Old (well, aside from those who don't believe Christ was the Son of God) but, from a theological perspective, it does.

    As for editing et al - it's been done dozens or more times. That's part of the problem - for a long time, the Holy Bible was only able to be read and translated by the Church, and there is plenty of evidence for times where the Church used its power to influence politics, society as a whole, etc. I find it hard to believe that nothing was added and/or changed for the furthering of the political agenda of the time.

    Fair enough

    Certainly, and a "world ending flood" to a civilization that spans a few hundred miles isn't all that impressive. That said:

    https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/e...t-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533

    An interesting find, for sure.
    Further reading - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/evidence-for-a-flood-102813115/


    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/how-you...e-of-criminal-responsibility-around-the-world
    Not much older than 8... but yeah. Things like this, while rare, are harrowing. What would drive a pair of ten year olds to abduct a 2 year old, then beat him to death?

    In the US
    Between 6 and 10, depending on the state you are in.
     
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    sideshowbob and Michael 345 like this.
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    From the Sermon on the Mount:

    "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

    (Matthew 5.17-20, RSV↱)

    Christians occasionally find cause to dispute the particular meaning among themselves, but generally speaking these verses are not obscure.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Weigle, Luther, et al. The Bible: Revised Standard Version. New York: Thomas Nelson, 1971. University of Michigan. 19 September 2018. http://bit.ly/2rJddky
     
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough, though (and perhaps I am misunderstanding - I am not a biblical scholar by any means) I always understood that to mean that he was completing the law; this would mesh with his final words on the cross, tetelesai, or "It is finished".

    https://www.gotquestions.org/it-is-finished.html

    The difference being that abolishing would imply that they were rendered moot; instead, He completed the old laws, and the new Covenant in Christ was purchased with His blood.

    The particular version of the bible seems to muddy the meaning further;

    https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/485-did-christ-abolish-the-law-of-moses
    As the article explains, the word kataluo is translated literally as "loose down". In essence, Christ is saying here is came not to invalidate the old law, but to complete its purpose:

    and

    This part from the Sermon on the Mount would seem to mean, then, that Christ's purpose was to enact the resolution of the Old Laws, and to bear their completion upon himself - that completion being death, as Mankind was incapable of obeying the laws in their totality.

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-christ-fulfilled-and-ended-the-old-testament-regime

     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    They probably say it because he said it ...
    Try the sermon on the mount...the sermon that to a large degree sums up christianity.

    Of course I expect the period of time from the sermon to it being recorded in writing would have been many many years so really who knows exactly what was preached on the day.

    Lets say that JC in fact said whatever we would like him to have said...it is after al heresay...so lets say JC rejected the OT and its immoral laws...yes that would be best...

    I guess the real problem with any of the JC story is it seems to have been a story told and retold for many years before it was written down so you could expect various details would have changed such that one could wonder if the story is credible.

    Folk seem to think there are no problems with heresay when it comes to establishing facts for their religion but fortunately reject heresay in the court room where more effort is applied to investigation of the claims of witnesses.

    The bible although an interesting piece of litrature contains enough mistakes really to render it undependable in any application.
    Sure some of it could be correct but how do you know which parts.

    And then we have folk such as your good self who really should know what their God is supposed to have said in his most important sermon who ignore his words to construct an appology for half their good book because they want to distance themselves , understandably, from the crazy crazy stuff like acceptable slave ownership and killing folk because they , in the original example, gathered sticks for a fire on the sabath.
    So it seems you must accept that the OT is as much a part of your faith as is the NT...will you stop eating shellfish now? Will you now listern to the call to kill your neighbour if he mows his grass on whatever day of rest you interprete to indeed be the day of rest...

    Consider this....

    Say you are a communist.
    You see the virtue in more equitable distribution of resources and motivated by wishing to do good for the community.

    You see communism as a good thing.

    But it is pointed out to you that certain goods are in short supply because the government forgot to plan and order them and you find that now you cant drive your car because no tires got made in the last five year plan.

    Do you sit at home saying what a great system you belong to or do you admit the system has a fundamental flaw.

    Now say along with stuffing up the tire supply you find the original manifesto lists rules pertaining to slave ownership, that you can beat your slave so long as he does not die soon thereafter, ...and lists a call to kill folk who work on a certain day, and that if your child is unruley have him stoned, and a general tone that has women treated as property and gross errors about the physical world its creation and destruction (stars can not fall on the ground as set forth in prediction of the end)...

    Would you say "oh communism is such a good thing and I want to belong"

    You can not be a christian and ignore the OT and if you accept the OT ...as you must...then all you stand for you dont stand for that ar all.

    Alex
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Holding the various people of Mankind to the standards professed by themselves, and those standards to reason, would hardly be a low bar.

    And that is one of the benefits of adopting the more humble approach of liberal reason - instead of adding to the long list moral Five Year Plans and doing unto others, we could recognize existing moral order and set about holding people to it by reason.
    The standard of "do not do wrong in your own eyes", which reason imposes, is currently a higher bar than we have cleared - but it seems to be within at least provisional reach.
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

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    30 seconds Google

    Kill those who work on the Sabbath

    Exodus 35:1-3 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

    http://literalbible.blogspot.com/2007/04/kill-those-who-work-on-sabbath.html?m=1

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Which Tiassa also brought up, and I addressed above in post 114

    In all honesty, though, it is somewhat amazing just how cohesive and coherent a book the Bible is given how many individuals accounts are in it and the length of time over which it has been told by mouth and then translated and transcribed.

    My takeaway from it, and one that I've discussed with our Pastors and they agree, is that the Bible isn't something that can be taken super literally, in large part due to the amount of time that has passed. The culture, the people, the technology, indeed the very norms that formed the basis for many laws are either vastly different or entirely new; to attempt to enforce it verbatim would be folly at best, outright disastrous and dangerous at worst.

    Let's break this comment down a bit:

    First part - And then we have folk such as your good self- certainly you can see where this would be taken as another backhanded compliment, given the apparent tone of the sentence (that of mockery and derision).

    Next - who really should know what their God is supposed to have said in his most important sermon- I do not profess to know every word of the bible by memory - to be blunt, my memory isn't good enough to accomplish such a feat. That said...

    Last - who ignore his words to construct an appology for half their good book because they want to distance themselves , understandably, from the crazy crazy stuff like acceptable slave ownership and killing folk because they , in the original example, gathered sticks for a fire on the sabath. - What exactly did I ignore? Reference post 114 - the Sermon on the Mount is part of that explanation. Regarding laws for acceptable slave ownership, why wouldn't this be covered? At the time, and for many generations after, it was a normal part of life; it would seem prudent to establish rules for it. That said, those rules no longer apply to modern (civilized) society, as slavery is not acceptable. How many laws are still on the books today that are no longer applicable (here's a good one - in my state of Pennsylvania, if you are driving and come upon a horse and buggy coming the opposite direction, you are supposed to pull over, disassemble your vehicle, and hide it in a bush until it passes by).

    Regarding the punishment for picking of sticks on the Sabbath
    https://christianity.stackexchange....ll-a-man-for-picking-up-sticks-on-the-sabbath

    There has been a lot of discussion over this particular thing, especially given that some were spared death (or, indeed, any punishment - see Mark 2:23-27). It is worth noting that, to the best of my knowledge, all examples of punishment for breaking the sabbath were in the Old Testament. There is also debate on whether those particular rules (such as kindling of fire during the Sabbath) even applied after the construction of the tabernacle.

    Further reading - https://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/ar.../arent-sabbath-breakers-supposed-to-be-stoned
    https://christianity.stackexchange....ll-a-man-for-picking-up-sticks-on-the-sabbath

    This is, of course, a rather silly false dilemma. If Christ died to fulfill the Old Laws, and they are finished, then are they still to be considered binding?
    Also, regarding shellfish as a specific (since it is a favorite of those who like to belittle believers, this was addressed)

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 7&version=NLT
    also
    The failure of a single part of a system does not invalidate the entire system... one could make a similar argument against the "free market" - in such that it works, intentionally and by design, to funnel money upwards, away from the needy and to those that already have plenty.

    The same argument, repeatedly stated, does not gain any more credibility simply by being repeated.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 8:10-13&version=NLT
    The Old Covenant, the Old Laws of the Old Testament, are fulfilled, finished and done. It is not that they were rendered invalid or moot - they have been completed.
     
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