Answer the question.

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Beaconator, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    It turns into a cat that is both alive and dead until you re-open the box.
     
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  3. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Not all of them but I am a fan.
     
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  5. Gerry Nightingale Banned Banned

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    In reply to sideshowbob, re: your # 182 post.

    So....you got my reference! Good on ya!

    (before I forget...the "answer" to "what happens to..." All of the elements have all of their normal values whether in or out of the "box", with the proviso that all of the elements

    are present in the box in their normal respective quotients...their "proper" ratios. (no, no "ka-boom")


    (Thanks for reading!)
     
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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I too know my Gilbert & Sullivan. But H.M.S. Pinafore is the title of an opera, not a song, so knowing all the "verses" an odd thing to ask about. Was the writer thinking of the Major-General's song in the Pirates of Penzance, do you think, which refers to "………...and whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore"?
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Blue below is the charge distribution of one O2 molecule - I. e. the center of mass, is slightly negative due to the two shared or "co-Valente" electrons represented by " : "
    The second O2's charge distribution is shown vertically so one, slightly positive, "O end" can be near the : of the other O2 (the blue one here).
    (It appears longer or taller as it is typed on three lines.)

    + : +
    o +
    oi:
    o +

    Drawing is intended to suggest one of the slightly positive ends of the second O2 may be weakly bound to the pair of shared electrons of the other O2. The thermal energy of liquid O2 is much lower than for cold water, so even weaker electro-static binding or "polymerization" may be possible. If this illustrated n =2 case is reality, then a third O2 joining also (the n=3 case) is possible too.

    What do you think? Is liquid O2, like cold water*,really a mix of different n polymerized O2 molecules?

    * especially liquid H2O at about 4C or lower.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2015
  9. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Have the elements in the box had their relative abundances or quantities adjusted to gram molar amounts by atomic weight? If not, some quantities of reactants will remain after the ones capable of reacting with each other chemically have finished.

    The noble gases don't change, except for radon, which undergoes radioactive decay after a short time, but may be replaced when radium also fissions.

    Halogens and other electronegative elements oxidize the first electropositive group 1, 2, or 3 element it contacts, and if present in sufficient quantity, with enough heat and explosive force to rupture the iron vessel (how thick?).

    Subject to relative quantities, molecules of compounds formed will be electrically and chemically neutral.
     
  10. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    This is evidently a design for a fusion reactor, because the effects of the creation of all those other elements would somehow need to be managed, just as is done with fission type reactors. The iron represents the magnetic containment of something like a Tokamak. Nice question, if a little vague.

    If the internal elements were to undergo fusion, elements heavier than the iron casing would also be produced. It fits.
     
  11. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The different between H2O and O2 is the oxygen in H2O has more access to the shared electrons than does O2. The oxygen in O2 has to share with another oxygen. Although the octet is completed, via the double bond, each oxygen still has the equivalent of six electrons. With H2O, the oxygen has more like the equivalent of 6-8 electrons; can exist from H2O to O-2.

    The difference in available electrons can seen within their shapes. Water is a tetrahedral existing in 3-D space, while O2 is more linear in space. The water has more ways to bind other water in 3-D, via hydrogen bonding, and polymerizes in more extended 3-D space, and freezes easier. The O2 is more limited in space and freezes slower. The water can polymerize in 3-D, analogous to diamond, while O2 more like graphite; loose analogy.
     
  12. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

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    Aren't all the elements already in a box we call the Universe?
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Your post not repeated is correct, but just stating the two Hs of H2O are more like an ionic bond than the co-valiant bond of the O2 molecule, but this last part, which I did quote, has no logic and does not answer my question.

    In post 185, I graphically ("type drew") two O2 molecules; one joined at its end (with a surely weak bond if it can even exist at liquid O2 temperature) to the presumed higher electron "cloud" density of the other's at middle / symmetric point/ or where the co-valiant molecular bond is. If three O2s were joined, they would not be in a plain like graphite's C atoms are. Your have not made any progress towards answering my question, which was:

    At liquid O2 (or much lower where O2 is still a liquid) temperatures do O2 molecules form many molecule large complexes (sort of like 3D polymers) as near freezing water does?

    You have only repeated what is known and added some false conclusion that if they do aggregate, the joined complex must be planar.
     
  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    This might answer this more exactly; from Wikipedia; solid oxygen.

    A total of six different phases of solid oxygen are known to exist:[1][6]

    1. α-phase: light blue — forms at 1 atm below 23.8 K, monoclinic crystal structure.
    2. β-phase: faint blue to pink — forms at 1 atm below 43.8 K, rhombohedral crystal structure, (at room temperature and high pressure begins transformation to tetraoxygen).
    3. γ-phase: faint blue - forms at 1 atm below 54.36 K, cubic crystal structure.
    4. δ-phase: orange — forms at room temperature by applying a pressure of 9 GPa
    5. ε-phase: dark-red to black — forms at room temperature at pressures greater than 10 GPa
    6. ζ-phase: metallic — forms at pressures greater than 96 GPa

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    The picture is #5 of the e-phase.

    In 2006, it was shown by X-ray crystallography that this stable phase known as ε oxygen or red oxygen is in fact O8.[10][11] No one predicted the structure theoretically:[6] a rhomboid O8 cluster[12] consisting of four O2 molecules.

    In this phase it exhibits a dark-red color, very strong infrared absorption, and a magnetic collapse.[1] It is also stable over a very large pressure domain and has been the subject of numerous X-ray diffraction, spectroscopic and theoretical studies. It has been shown to have a monoclinic C2/m symmetry and its infrared absorption behaviour was attributed to the association of oxygen molecules into larger units.

    These O8 units then stack as shown ;

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    To Wellwisher: Yes SOLID oxygen has several structure, but the question was about LIQUID oxygen and remains unanswered. For third time:

    At liquid O2 (or much lower where O2 is still a liquid) temperatures do O2 molecules form many molecule large complexes (sort of like 3D polymers) as near freezing water does?
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I do not know the answer but I would be quite surprised if such 3D polymeric structures formed in the case of O2. I found some data for latent heat of evaporation of O2 compared to water, viz 214kJ/kg for O2 vs 2257 kJ/kg for water. Since the MW of oxygen is 32/18 x that of water, the molar heat of evaporation of O2 will be 214/2257 x 18/32, i.e. about 1/20 that of water.

    What that tells us, I think, is that the intermolecular forces between O2 molecules are pretty weak, at least compared to the notoriously strong H bonding in water. If these forces are so weak, I'd have difficulty imagining they would be strong enough to overcome thermal motion in the liquid, even close its freezing point. But I cannot find any definitive, direct answer to your question, so I could be wrong.

    But, looking at your earlier posts, why do you think the O2 molecule looks like a pair of dipoles, with more -ve charge in the bonding region than around the atoms themselves, and thus a slight +ve charge at the atoms? Is there evidence of this?
     
  17. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Based on the solid data, tetra-oxygen O4 and octa-oxygen O8 both need pressure to form. I would guess there will be no polymerization at lower pressure; atmospheric, but you might get smaller domaines as the pressure gets higher. One should still get O4 and maybe O8, which can then form small structures.

    The hydrogen bonding of water is much stronger and can bind four water to a central water even at low pressure. Low pressure makes it easier to form structure with the freezing coming sooner. Oxygen is opposite.
     
  18. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    If liquid O2 is cold enough for two molecules to bind, one end to middle of the other, as illustrated early, that is basically a 2D structure with no molecule bound to the mild point of one - Why would not a third join its end there, as the second molecule did to the first? With three joined, it very likely is a 3D structure, that could still grow as there is always one mid point of an O2 with nothing joined to it.

    Of course the would break ups of large 3D aggregate by the weak thermal energy; so a distribution with various N O2s joined if two can join. - that is the fundamental, and still unanswered question.
     

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