Another year without pro football

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Xmo1, Aug 10, 2018.

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  1. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Our national anthem, and the flag, and so on are not about the government. When it is said that the government is us it doesn't mean that it is everything we are. It is only one part of a social system (which is also not everything we are) that we have built. The flag and national anthem represent the whole social system, and the people, and everything we hold dear. They represent our country. gtg.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So why do you object to people trying to communicate with you about that anthem, that flag, and those principles?
    And that has not included black men in the US. Hence the current issue.
    You've been failing to stand together with black men.
    In the case of the black men involved, that would include the police. Do you think it would be ok if the black men treated the police the way you treat your enemies? Will you help them do that - will you stand together with black men and help protect them from the people shooting bullets at them, and their neighbors, and their families?
     
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  5. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    I haven't read your post yet so please forgive. I want to general post here. Civilization is partly (because of the population) made of sets of social systems. The U.S. is the most diverse population on the planet. When you talk of diversity it includes the social systems (rules published or not, laws, and other things they call norms). The (official) social system of the government is but one of many, like the official bird, or the official language. There are others. The governed in this country agree to submit to this "official" social system. Never-the-less, it must be maintained, and right now it's out of date, inefficient, not properly financed, and a general mess. The Earth: Scientists say that if we don't take action to change things our world is doomed for life as we know it for the next millennium. That's a sobering thought. Time to get together and do it right.
     
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  7. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    What if you thought of humans as life, and the primary drive is to survive and procreate. Would you see skin color, or would that just be a false thought created by your mind that is something (I sometimes think) like a parasite attached to a brain. We should take care of life, and sometimes that means not to procreate, or to procreate with rules. A good iron would come in handy for the current system. That should be our civilizations primary endeavor, and in keeping with biological imperatives. Our social system needs to change "officially." I like technocracy. There is a representative element in the current social system, but it is not dominate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  8. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    One of my best friends. That is not a title, or something to laugh at, I'm talking about a human I cared about, ran marathons in Germany. We were in the same company. He was my peer. I trusted him. I would give my life for his. Really ice, you should temper your intelligence with the wisdom of others. One thing, by company I mean U.S. Army company deployed. We fight and die for you. It's a small community. It is a social system, and we have our rules. We are professionals. We keep the world free from nuclear annihilation, and ... other things. It may be different from what you know.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You've been failing to stand together with black men in the US. You've been demanding that they pretend to a "unity" you abet denial of. How you treat your friends, your family, your dog, is beside the point.
    This question still:
    Everyone I know well would be safer, personally, if service in the US Army deprived one of citizenship and the right to vote. But I don't push for maximum safety for myself and my friends and family - I defend your right to speak, to vote, to act as an adult citizen of the United States, regardless of what both experience and statistics and the evidence here say about your likely political influence.
    Is that ok by you - that other people, who regard enforced rituals of obeisance toward flags and anthems as betrayals of every principle their country stands for, nevertheless treat you with civility?
     
  10. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Good. Unity is stagnation. And anyway it would be artificial. If freedom means anything, it's the freedom to make up your own mind and express discontent on a political level.
     
  11. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Probably a matter of context and lawful authority. I've experienced an army in a foreign country moving into a university and killing educators. In fact, it's has happened many times even in recent history where the dictatorship (the group at the top) has decided intelligent people, and a free press were "illegal," and proceeded to eliminate them one way or another. About all that can reasonably happen at that point is to remove those people from the area, which is difficult, dangerous, and limited. In smaller countries there is not much of a separation between the army and the police. So that's about context.

    Talking about lawful, legitimate, or rightful authority is full of philosophical contention, so I'm going to avoid it.
    Will I stand with the black (men) population against the police? No. First, it's a false assumption with no merit. The words black population can only be used in some population statistic. The totality of black people are not members of some grand organization united against the Government of the United States. That organization doesn't exist, so the question is moot at best.

    Will I stand with pro football players protesting against excessive police violence?
    .....Not while the National Anthem is playing. Why not? I think it's unethical.
    Would I stand with people (black or otherwise, pro football players or otherwise) against excessive police violence anywhere at any time?
    .....That's more likely.
    What do you think should happen?
    .....I think local law enforcement services should have a more thorough screening process for entrance, and a more thorough training process before active service. But then they must do their jobs, and hopefully that would include community support.

    In other words, it's one thing to protest excessive violence by police, and another to protest the existence of the police force itself. The police force is a much needed element of the criminal justice system. Here's a link that might be informative to someone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States

    There are a bunch of problems in this country, and this problem is on a low rung of the ladder. Economic disparity is higher. Corporate totalitarianism is higher. Access to medical care is higher. Environmental wasting is higher. I could easily produce a list of things more important than excessive police violence. What most of it comes down to though is the need for major changes to occur in U.S. and World activity that should tend to caring for life itself through the social systems that are available, or that need to be built or maintained. Resource grabbing, the me me all about me, and everything is about money ideas need to go. Our politics and social systems should first ask, How are you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  12. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    I think that anyone between the ages of 21 and 35 applying for citizenship should be required to serve in the armed forces for a couple of years if they meet the physical and mental criteria. Regards "enforced rituals of obeisance toward flags and anthems as betrayals of every principle their country stands for": The U.S. military protects the citizens of the United States. It is a means of security. Ask any business person: You must have security before you can have a business. You must have security before you can have country. The military is a volunteer organization. All of it's members are volunteers. We are not forced into obedience, respect, and honor. We allow it. The flag does not betray the country. It represents it. ... nevertheless treat you with civility ... Do you think my 'Civil treatment' is the result of a gratuity by some group of people? It's not.
     
  13. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty damn bad, when the cops are shooting unarmed citizens, mostly the brown ones. And when unethical, fake moralistic fools think a song is more important than dead humans.
     
  14. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    So, are you are saying all cops (law enforcement officers) are killing all unarmed brown citizens? Are you saying cops (LEO) in general are dangerous armed racists? What exactly are you saying, because words are important. Here's an example:

    ISIS supported recruiters might be successful in convincing some people that U.S. foreign policy is killing innocent people. Pretty much the exact rhetoric has been used for centuries by communists against U.S. citizens. They are so lazy they don't even change the tactics to meet their causes. They copy paste. They are worse than predatory corporations. Fortunately, people here (in the U.S.) have seen it before, and are generally smart enough to see through it for what it really is - people trying to control other people (en mass) for power and money. Nothing new or intelligent about it. It's destructive at best. It's really a low life tactic to use old rhetoric to target children, and children are their primary rhetorical target right before they teach them to blow themselves up. They are nothing without violence.

    What would be your solution?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The black men cannot avoid it, in your country. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ving-rhames-cops-racism-20180730-story.html
    So the police and courts are allowed to treat black men as enemies, but the black men must stand and salute the flag and the anthem without even a peaceful and respectful indication of protest.
    Instead, the administration you and the majority of the US military supported is trying to remove from the military (and deny citizenship to) people who have already enlisted and served in the understanding that they were earning citizenship thereby. The reasons are obscure, but appear to involve - once again, as always these days with Republican Party government - racial bigotry: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...ervice-naturalization-discharge-history-mavni
    So? We were talking about flags and anthems at football games.
    And security for black men as they walk and drive and sit in their living rooms at home.
    In your country.
    Yep.
     
  16. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    "Talking about lawful, legitimate, or rightful authority is full of philosophical contention." So lawful authority, legitimate authority, rightful authority - they are different things. Check for details.

    My opinion is that the American social system is badly in need of an update. In that, the entertainment industry deals in the domain of fantasy. That's what they know, and that's what they do. If I were concerned with fantasy they would be the people I would seek out. The political administration is temporary. It comes and goes. Meanwhile, people in the workplace ARE trying to cope with problems such as racism, excessive force, and viruses that are resistant to antibiotics.

    Do you think the chief of police, or the judge is happy to see that one of their officers made a mistake, or committed a crime? No. It's unreasonable to think so. If your ideas are going to help that officer, that chief of police, or that judge then great. Personally, I've been taught not to protest. Rather, offer solutions, because in the problem solving domain solutions are needed.

    I've got to say I'm struck by the lack of support for my original post. Many people feel and act the same way I have here in the states. I expected a better, and more robust discussion. Maybe it will happen still. Who knows? BTW, I'm retired. I don't wear suits. I'm just old enough to mow the lawn on my best of days without keeling over.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You are objecting to black men protesting against wrongs being done to them by the people you describe as lawful, legitimate, rightful authority. They are offering peaceful, respectful, lawful, legitimate communication - you said you wanted that.
    Meanwhile, black men may on occasion, at their discretion, protest mistreatment by American government.
    So? Give them gold stars, and get back to the issue.
    One idea would be to fire them and keep firing them until we get some less influenced by racial bigotry in the performance of their duties.
    So shut up, then. Let the black men handle the situation as they see fit, and support them.
    You have been treated with civility, despite your posting. What more do you expect?
     
  18. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    I understand your post, and agree with pretty much all of it.

    I do appreciate you taking the time to discuss the issue. I have read the United Nations list of human rights, and hold that document as important, at least as a starting point for correct behavior. So, thank you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  19. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    I don't wish to undermine our country with lies, but I do wish to point out that the struggle for civil rights goes on, and it's more important than any game. Right now, the GOP and Putin want to agitate white America for political purposes that are opposed to civil rights. That's not only wrong, it's evil.
     
  20. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    I think eventually the Russians will ally with the U.S. against China. The message will be that we love the Chinese people. The leaders that want war will be placed on an island for a month with machetes. At the end of the month, those that remain will be given jobs as street sweepers in NYC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  21. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. Nuclear weapons make war highly unlikely.
     
  22. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Civil rights ; human rights : UN has a set of human rights. I think what you call civil rights is all in people's heads. They've been influenced by arguments proffered by social groups that they choose to identify with as a result of the amplitude of the message in their own minds.
     
  23. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    Sht. Know any guy who doesn't want to light off the next biggest firework? It's women's place to tone down the testosterone level at this point.

    R.S.
    All life on this planet communicates. Communication is common among life. Listen for it.
    We don't have enough data. Dark matter: What about multiple dimensions? Whose to say that the auditory "communication" that I am having with the 'invisible person" next to me is not a person in another dimension communicating with me? I would suppose that it is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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