animal experimention - mistreating animals

I don't want to get picky but this doesn't make sense. You can't say souls don't exist because they entail the existence of God, and God can't exist because you say so, all the while having no definition of what you mean by the terms 'soul' and 'god'. This is just prejudice.

I agree that 'soul' is a word that carries a lot of baggage, and prefer not to use it myself. But you can't say that something you cannot define does not exist. Views of the human soul can be a lot more complex and subtle than the stuff you got in Christian Sunday school.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I have never given a definition of 'animal', but you don't seem to be bothered about that either. There is no need to define certain words because there is a general agreement on their definition and at the same time everybody knows that there is no one particular definition of this concept.

Since no scientists ever showed the existence of a soul (i looked it up in pubmed), I would dare to state at this point in time that there is no soul. Whatever its definition may be. I do not think that it is not up to me to give definitions of concepts that are fictual.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

A "soul" does not necessarily require "God".
Especially if you do not have a definition of the "soul".

The two are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

excuse me for being rude, but...

Did I wrongly assume that soul is a spiritual concept? Whether you have one gods, many gods, a spiritual world concept, a buddhist viewpoint, it all comes down to the fact that soul is not a natural concept. Excuse me for not spitting out every single detail. I thought we were all intelligent people here.

we can be anal retentive about this and drag this 'discussion' on and on. But at one point one could be reasonable and just imagine what the other person could mean by soul and what the general public thinks what a 'soul' is.

Let's go really rational then:
Animal experimentation is a phenomenum that occurs in the scientific community as a tool to acquire knowledge. In this scientific world (that uses animal experimentation) there is no accepted concept of soul, especially within the frame of animal experimentation, and there is no official rulings or is there mentioning of soul in relation to guidelines and procedures for animal experimentation.

 

ah, thank you, on topic! heh

but lets say a loved one of yours is in the hospital with some desease...say, brought about because some product was't thouroughly tested...on animals even. Or, think to the future, what if major advancements are made in treating cancer because of extensive animal research? How many mice is a loved one worth to you? Granted, I am against pointless animal research (like those packets on drugs...:m: is bad for your lungs...wow) because it undermines how we view life, wouldn't that be pyschological, not theological? And my appologies to wellcookedfetus...

 

1)"... January 19th 1990 Pope John Paul 11 said "also the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with smaller brethren" He pointed out that in Genesis "the way in which man was created suggests a relationship with the spirit or the breath of God. And one reads that after having created man from the dust of the earth, the Lord God 'breathed life into his nostrils and man became a living soul.'" He went on to say that animals have the breath of life and were given it by God. So, in this respect, man, created by the hand of God, is identical with all other living creatures. Although the pope's statement was reported in the Italian press it was not reported in the UK and was ignored by British Catholic publications."
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/animalsouls.htm#4


2) death is certain for all living things.

3) pain is certain for all living things capable of feeling pain. Pain, as far as science in concerned, evolved as a warning signal. Therefore all those beings who have this warning signal can feel physical pain.

4) people are afraid of death. It is unknown. We are afraid of it.

I think that we are also very dumb. Why be afraid of death? We know that life is filled with pain and suffering. It also holds joy. I assume we are not afraid of death because we don't want to loose our suffering. so we are afraid because we don't want to loose out joy? I can understand that. But will we loose our joy? And if we do, will we be aware enough to know that we have lost our joy, and be sad? nothingness is unrecognisable from the inside, so there is no reason to be afraid. The christain god is a loving, forgiving God, and we have souls, so tell him how great he is, and you can look at him for eternity. say he sucks, and you got out of his sight for eternity. nothing about fire and such in the old testiment. that came about long after the bible was written.

either way, doesn't sound terrible to me, really. The worst thing I can imagine is that death is simply losing control of your body. you are still aware, can still see and hear, and can still feel, but cannot react. To feel the decay of your own body would be pretty bad, IMO. That would be hell for me. that and largely only that. And even that is not pure hell. you can stil learn. learn what it's like to be dead.

everything can teach you, so it can't be pure hell- there is still good in all the other options.



Would I want animal testing for a drug which would save my father's life? no. would I want to, really, really badly? yes, of course.
However, I am not just looking at his life, but at the lives of everyone and everything. if humans succeed in preventing death, then population will increase more than it already is, and overall quality of life in the long run will decrease. So I do not support much of what goes on in the research area, I don't see it as truely being helpful, simply postponing the pain which will be suffered enmass by our decendants.
But I will not be able to convise people that this is the case. people will not listen. so, I will try and make the best use of what goes on. on an individual basis, teach people how to survive on their own, without plastic, without running water, and without cars or video games. remind them that we did not evolve while living in a high rise appartment. make them feel more secure in themselves by removing their dependace on modern conveinience. Important note: not remove modern convenience, but remove the dependance on it, created by a loss of basic knowledge.
I will not take a job testing products on animals. I will try to not use products that were excessivly tested on animals, and I will try and use products which were not at all tested on animals. I will make my life and in turn the lives of those around me, including plants and animals, as good as possible. I will not push my beliefs on to others, but will leave them out in the open so that others can pick through them, and take what they want. And I will feel compassion for every being which is subjected to torchure for others, while at the same time not letting their suffering go to waste. Taiji came from the suffering of prisoners. The power of America came alot through the strength of slavery while it was young. I will put the good to use, and feel guilty for the bad, so that I do not find myself repeating it.

/annoyingly sermon-like rant over. thanks.

 

I would not have expected such a silly discussion here. The idea of 'soul' held by Buddhists (not that they would normally use this woolly term) differs in crucial respects to that held by a Christian, which differs again from views held in other philophies and belief systems. How are we supposed to guess which you mean? Some entail 'God' and some don't.

In case you're interested in Buddhist cosmology and ontology a 'soul' (hate that word) is more 'natural' a concept than a planet.

You do not normally talk nonsense so I assume you have a blindspot on this issue. You've managed to speak pseudo-philosophy, pseudo-science and pseudo-theology all in one go.

I don't think I'll ever understand how it is that so many otherwise scientific and rational people discard their objectivity and rationality at the first mention of anything they consider non-scientific.

 

It is all the same to me, since the existence of soul has never been proven by science. I honestly just don't care what the difference is between different concepts of souls or god if the concept is not real.

So, what is your definition of 'animal' and 'experiment'. They differ you know...

 

Sorry - I didn't realise you were just messing about. It's lucky that the existence of a feeling of annoyance hasn't been proven by science either, otherwise I'd probably have one.

 

Actually it has been

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

I think you'll find it hasn't. It would be very big news if it had.

 

how could your proof the existence of 'soul'.

 

Emotions are simply impulse of different pathways in the brain and the use of different endorphins. Pain, pleasure, happiness, angry, frustration, depression are link directly to specific sections of the brain and levels of specific endorphin uses. So no there is no magical soul making us who we are... there is only a physical soul made of neurons, dendrites and axons.

 

and you're tryin to tell me a cat has a soul! hehe

I wouldn't call a soul magical, it just sounds like the difference between humans and animals...I mean, we all agree that there is something different, right?

and I don't know about that pope thing, that just sounds very unpope-like, you got a link?

[after bringing up soul again runs to the closet and hides] muwahahaha!

 

No there is no different between humans and animal, if you mean to say that human have a distinct group of characteristics that no other animal has combined then you are correct. Humans have advance and complex language, advance cognitive skills and opposable thumbs, beside that we act and think like animals, we have the same emotions, desires and impulses as animals, we may have some distinct abilities that have allowed us to conquer the world for are own selfish greedy animals disires, but when it comes down to it we are nothing but talking monkeys!

 

bingo...but that is a difference nonetheless

 

an elephant differs from us and most animals for its trunk...doesn't make it a special creation in any way though. Similar for the human species... Our cortex might be slightly more folded than that of an ape, but that is it.

 

"human have a distinct group of characteristics that no other animal has combined" <-- I like that one

 

Ants also have a distinct group of characteristics that combined no other animal has... does that make them "special"?

 

true, but I think it has more to do with the intelligence aspect, or the fact that we can go against natural order and screw everything up