Animal Domestication

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Orleander, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Well put. It's generally acknowledged that dogs were not "domesticated" by humans but voluntarily formed the world's first multi-species community. I maintain that this remarkable innovation was a key step in our advance toward civilization.

    At the time, humans were a pack-social species like most of the other Great Apes, our closest cousins. But unlike gorillas and chimpanzees who can graze on leaves and digest the cellulose for its food value, we are the only carnivorous ape and we rely on predation for our food supply. This means a pre-agricultural Stone Age human tribe required a rather large hunting territory--so large that we couldn't build permanent settlements but had to be nomads, following the game.

    Every tribe had to jealously guard its territory, because a pre-agricultural "economy" produces virtually no surplus food, and during a bad year we had nothing to share. Humans were like other pack-hunting predators, such as lions, regarding other tribes with suspicion and hostility.

    One of those other pack-hunting predators was the wolf. In a remarkable event, a curious and tolerant pack of wolves experimented with moving closer to the camp of a curious and tolerant tribe of humans. They could see that our campground was littered with perfectly edible food, and we could see that the other more aggressive predators left our camp alone when it was guarded by wolves with their keen night vision.

    Surely this did not go smoothly as some of the wolves regarded human children as food and some of the humans could not overcome their instinctive panic at the proximity of a large animal with both eyes in front of its face. But over the centuries the wolves with a compatible temperament became part of our tribe and we discovered that our complementary hunting skills brought down more game than the two packs could bring down separately.

    This would be remarkable enough: voluntary cooperation between two species in the same ecological niche. But I suggest that our learning to rely on and care for pack-mates who we couldn't even talk to planted the idea that perhaps we could somehow learn to cooperate with the other packs of humans, and make life sweeter for everyone.

    Isn't it curious that after being nomadic pack-social hunter-gatherers for millions of years, a mere three or four thousand years after dogs began to live with us, we invented-agriculture-built-permanent-settlements-lived-in-communities-with-people-we-hadn't-grown-up-with-and-started-on-our-way-to-building-civilization?

    I hyphenated that because on the scale of human history up to that point it really did happen at almost blinding speed. The first dogs 14KYA, the first cultivated plants 12KYA, the first city 10KYA.

    So yes, it's not facetious to say that dogs "domesticated" us.
    To be fair, other animals self-domesticated. Cats started hanging around our granaries because they were full of tasty rodents. Earlier, pigs and goats had wandered into our camps like the dogs, cleaning up the garbage. Unfortunately the relationship didn't end up so well for them. But that's rare. Animal husbandry is a key technology and we had to invent it in order to domesticate cattle, sheep, chickens, horses, camels, ducks, llamas, elephants, turkeys, rabbits, geese, etc.
    That was a good read, thanks. Unfortunately you have to be a member to get past the summary of Morey's article. I'm interested in the controversy over the time of self-domestication of wolves/dogs. I've seen the DNA research that puts it much earlier, but apparently it's not convincing. The first DNA analysis put it at around 14KYA in what is now China, and the original pack of wolves whose more adventurous members moved into the human camp are still there so the DNA comparison is easy. This only happened once; all dogs are descended from that one pack. Humans took their dogs with them everywhere and traded them with other tribes. This reinforces the premise that animal husbandry had not yet been invented and no one yet knew how to "domesticate" and captive-breed any animal. (Animal husbandry and farming--plant cultivation--are the two technologies that comprise the Agricultural Revolution.)
    You're behind the DNA information curve. Dogs are wolves. They've been reclassified taxonomically as Canis lupus familiaris. They have enough differences to qualify as a separate subspecies: smaller brains to adapt to the lower-protein diet of a scavenger, slightly different teeth less well-suited for quickly ripping the flesh off a kill before the larger carnivores move in, and a much broader social instinct for forming larger packs with (now) many different species of pack mates.

    BTW, dingos turn out to be plain old dogs. Of course there were no wolves in Australia and they did not come with the Aborigines in 50KYA, long before domestication. They were brought over by explorers from Asia and the islands around 5KYA and they really liked the place.

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    Coyotes are Canis latrans, a distinct but closely related species. They have a tractable social instinct, able to hunt in packs or scavenge singly or in pairs, and they crossbreed readily with both domestic dogs and feral wolves. Their success in North America is due to their willingness to be camp-followers and adapt first to Indian settlements and then to civilization, like raccoons, skunks, possums and even bears. In Los Angeles they've become diurnal and learned to walk with their tails held high so they pass for dogs. You might see one on a Pasadena street at high noon, waiting for the traffic light.

    Hyenas are not canids. They are a separate family of carnivores, but they belong to the clade that includes the cats. (Most carnivore families such as bears and weasels are in the dog clade.)
     
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  3. mikenostic Stop pretending you're smart! Registered Senior Member

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    It's the wolf. If you have other ideas, by all means post them (unlike you did above). Until then, I'll go with the wolf.
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    As usual, Fraggle, you take some minor issue of pre-history that no one actually knows about and type a long, detailed post as if you know all about it. And as usual and with this post, most of it is nothing but speculation and the continuance of prehistoric myths ...yet you present it as solid fact.

    Pure speculation with no solid evidence to back it up.

    Pure speculation without evidence to back it up. In those days, scientists speculate that the world was full of game animals, so the humans did NOT need large hunting areas. And in the camps that have been discovered, where are all of the dog bones?

    More pure speculation with no substantive evidence. Yet there is overwhelming evidence that the world of early man teemed with game animals as well as wild fruits, nuts and edible plants (vegatables).

    Wow! Is this the beginning of new fiction novel? When will it be published? I love reading fictional stories/novels!

    More of the same fictional novel, Fraggle? Or is the beginning of another one? I just love fiction ...and you obviously love writing it. Keep up the fictional writing, Fraggle, you might succeed someday.

    I would turn your study, however, toward that of the more documented race of "early man" - the Native Americans. They used dogs in their camps, but mostly only as garbage disposers and edible food in hard times. No Native American tribes used dogs as you've suggested in your wild speculative fictional narrative(except perhaps the Eskimos who used them as beasts of burden as well as food). Care to explain that conflict? And if you do, could you explain it without going into such horrendous length?! ...especially if you do so without substantial evidence!

    So dogs caused man to begin to settle into 'civilizations'? If dogs hadn't come along, man would still be hunting game out on the African plains ...with spears? ...LOL!

    Wow! More and more speculation, Fraggle! You're just full of this fictional shit, ain't you? Is it something you eat that causes these wild, lengthy, speculative, fictional posts all the time? If you could harness that wild speculative nature of yours, you could be a worldclass fiction writer!

    More speculation? Cats? Ya' mean like lions and leopards and such?

    Pigs? Goats? Were there any pigs or goats at that time, Fraggle? Or is that part of your new fiction novel, too? Do you sit up nights dreaming up all this fictional garbage? And, Fraggle, if it's not fictional, wild speculation, would you care to provide some substantive evidence?

    I would remind you again ...the dogs of the Native American tribes never, ever, used dogs as you've so glowingly attributed to far earlier forms of man. Many of the Native Americans had quite extensive forms of 'civilization', yet the dogs played no role other than as garbage disposers, pets and sometimes as a meat supply. Care to "speculate" on the differences, Fraggle?

    And in my opinion, passing on the idle, wild speculations of others is just as much a "crime" as the first speculator! It is, of course, the source of almost all myths ...and we all know the scientific value of myths, right?

    I don't know, Fraggle, but when your new fictional novel comes out, please let us know. I'd love to buy it and read it. ;=)

    Baron Max
     
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  7. mikenostic Stop pretending you're smart! Registered Senior Member

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    Hyenas aren't canines. They are more closely related to cats, weasels, mongeese, etc.
     
  8. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    are you saying the Mongols herded cows?

    Look at what horses did for Native Americans. I think they ate dogs.
     
  9. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Guys I was kidding Hyenas and coyotes - I was just fuckin with asguard since he disagreed with me on saying "Wolf".

    Arrrg Tedious, I'm tired...
     
  10. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Didn't have to herd them, they captured and killed them along the way!

    I think the horse did wonders for the NA's, but...? I think domesticating the horse was a major accomplishment for mankind, so you're preaching to the choir. Still, as to "THE" greatest thing .....?

    Baron Max
     
  11. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    so the Chinese raised cows for eating? I thought they were more chicken, pig, and duck farmers.
    no, not cows
     
  12. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    No, the largest impact. I don't think dogs have affected the history of mankind the way horses have.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, sure! I agree with you that dogs were NOT the largest impact on mankind.

    But then I'm not so sure that the horse was either. I'm still stuck on the idea of a ready supply of food in the form of domesticated cattle, chickens, etc. Once you have a ready supply of food, most anything is possible. Dogs couldn't and didn't do that for man ...in any way.

    I like horses, so if you argue very much for them, I'll give in easily!

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    Baron Max
     
  14. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, I'm confused now.

    For a domesticated food source I'm gonna have to go with goats. I don't know of many civilizations that didn't eat/milk them. They are easier to raise than cows, that's for sure.
     
  15. mikenostic Stop pretending you're smart! Registered Senior Member

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    That's because you're looking at it from a totally different perspective.
    Man does not have a kinship with horses like he does with dogs.
    Take the population anytime throughout history when dogs and horses both were domesticated. There would be a much higher percentage of the population that would own and/or have regular contact with dogs, than horses; if for nothing else because dogs were much easier to keep, requiring much less to board and feed than a horse. I'm sure you could Google up any stat of percentage of horse owners in population vs. percentage of dog owners in population and they all would show dog owners at a much higher percentage.
    How many horse owners throughout history compared to how many dog owners walked their horses daily? Taught their horses commands?
    Dogs have a kinship with man on a scale horses could never achieve.
    That said, I think horses are beautiful, majestic animals. If I ever have the facilities and funds to have one as a pet and to ride, I will. They did help shape nations and do/will have their place in history.
    But, a horse is not "Man's best friend".
     
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Ah, I don't know ....where the fuck did goats come from? And for that matter, sheep? But a form of cattle has been around for umpty-eleven years and were wild on the African plains while man was wandering around naked and happy.

    Baron Max
     
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, sure, but did they have the greatest impact on the human lifestyle or were they just pets and garbage disposers? Big difference, ya' know?

    Sure there were lots more dogs and dog owners, but what did the dogs do for those people? ...other than a pets, perhaps watchdogs that barked at things in the night?

    Baron Max
     
  18. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, different than yours. Its no less valid.

    I grew up with people who loved their horse as much as you love your dogs. Horses are as smart as dogs. They protect as well as dogs. They go home as well as dogs. They are as trainable as dogs. :shrug:

    What impact have dogs made on the history of man?
     
  19. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    ah yes. The days when men were naked and happy and the women pointed and laughed.
    good times, good times.

    I bet Africans eat/milk more goats than cows. Cows eat too damn much
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, the good ol' times. Now it's the men who cover up, then laugh and point at the sagging tits of the women! ...and admire the firm, proud tits of the younger girls!! ...LOL!

    Were there any goats and sheep in Africa during that period of time? If not, and I don't think there were, then cattle still have to take the lead.

    Where the hell did goats come from and when? You know all that computer search garbage, can't you quickly look that up for us? I'm afraid to do too much on my computer 'cause it might blow up in my face if I hit the wrong button!!

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    Baron Max
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I think it was pretty clearly labeled as opinion:
    We can't all be the Royal Curmudgeon, since you hold that office. Some of us have to take this place seriously and offer hypotheses for discussion, or you wouldn't have anything to play your cranky games with.
    Their hunting and gathering territories were so large that in most cases they could not cover them from a base camp. This is why very few permanent settlements were created, which would have given them the opportunity to develop technologies that require heavy tools and raw materials. In general, only the Mesolithic folk who discovered a great year-round place for fishing were able to settle down and develop a Neolithic lifestyle before the Agricultural Revolution.
    AFAIK the earliest evidence of humans and dogs sharing gravesites goes back to about 11KYA. I believe the article Skinwalker linked to provided some data on the subject.
    I think you're generalizing from the idyllic conditions the Europeans discovered in North America. Humans have only lived in the New World for a fraction of the time we've had to take over Eurasia, so the population density was lower and they had not had enough time to deplete the resources. Only where the Olmecs and Incas had developed civilizations did they begin to encounter scarcity, and even the Incas hadn't been around long enough to have as much of an impact as the Mesoamericans.

    There were famines in the Paleolithic Era. One of them occurred at the time of the first migration out of Africa, leading to the speculative hypothesis (are you happy Max?) that the Homo sapiens diaspora was a desperate search for food.

    The American colonists had the same experience as the Paleoindian migrants across Beringia, fast-forwarded to the next Paradigm Shift. They found a land where civilization had not been invented, so the natural resources had not been depleted. We think it's our rugged character and our democratic ideals that made America great, but it might have been the humble fact that we had more coal, wood, metal ore and fertile topsoil per capita than the Europeans and Asians.
    As I already pointed out, the aboriginal North Americans lived in a land of plenty because they hadn't been there long enough to increase their population and stress the resources. They didn't need working dogs and they had coyotes to do the scavenging. The very reason they are so well "documented" is that some of them were still living in the Stone Age when photography was invented.

    Edit: Use of the dog travois for hauling is well-documented among the aboriginal North Americans. However, I have not been able to determine whether this use of dogs as beasts of burden was their own idea or something they learned from the Europeans. It seems unlikely to be a European teaching since they had the wheel and had not used the travois for millennia. On the other hand, seeing a horse pulling a cart could have inspired the Indians to invent the travois. (A travois is a triangular sledge that is supported at the front edge and tapers to a point which drags on the ground. It's obviously only suitable for fairly level, unobstructed ground.)
    No, Mister Wise-Ass. I mean "cats" as in Felis sylvestris, the only species of feline that was domesticated until recent work with ocelots and African jungle cats. They're solitary hunters of small game and the erection of granaries caused a spike in the rodent population, a match made in heaven. Or to be precise, in Egypt. The earliest evidence of cats hanging around human habitation is found in Egypt and indeed the subspecies of cat that is the gene pool of all domestic cats is Felis sylvestris lybicus, the wild cat of North Africa. The self-domestication of cats occurred after the founding of civilization so we have better archeological evidence than we have for dogs.
    At what time? Both species are millions of years old. This website says that goats were one of the earliest domesticated food animals, going back to 10-11KYA, the dawn of agriculture. It doesn't talk about how they first found their way into our camps, but they are brazen scavengers. It's reasonable to hypothesize that the first experiments in animal husbandry were performed on animals who were relatively content to live in proximity to humans, rather than those we had to go out and capture, kicking and screaming.
    No they didn't, Max. Mesoamerican civilization had not extended north of the Rio Grande by the time the Christian armies arrived and destroyed it. There were tribes in what is now the USA that had begun cultivating crops--farming, one of the two technologies that comprise agriculture--and this allowed them to establish permanent villages and peaceful trading networks. This puts them at the cusp of the Neolithic Era--the Late Stone Age. But they still had to hunt down their protein; the largest domesticated animal their attempts at animal husbandry (the other half of agriculture) had achieved was the turkey. They did not have civilization, "the building of cities," although the cliff dwellings at Mesa Verde and the ruins of a few other experiments show that the idea had occurred to them before they had the other technologies--or perhaps the luck--to make a go of it.
    The order Carnivora is divided into two suborders, Caniformia and Feliformia. The caniforms include the families of dogs, bears, raccoons, skunks, pinnipeds, pandas and mustelids (weasels, ferrets, otters, etc.). The feliforms are a much smaller clade, including only cats, civets, mongooses and hyenas. So you're right about the hyenas, cats and mongooses, but the weasels belong in the other suborder with the dogs.

    * * * * Note from the Linguistics Moderator * * * *
    "Mongeese" is not listed as an acceptable plural of "mongoose."
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  22. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    :roflmao:

    Sorry Mike, but that's damn funny

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  23. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    To be fair to Mike it is logical to assume that since goose => geese, mongoose => mongeese.
     

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