angular momentum influence on solar output

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by sculptor, Mar 13, 2016.

  1. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    OK, this has now degenerated into a general discussion about what we don't know about bodies in the solar system.

    But one thing still seems strange: why did you start this thread under Earth Sciences, when the subject matter (whether the original, or as broad and vague as you have now made it) has no apparent relevance to the Earth?
     
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  3. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Gravitational radiation is how the gravitational energy is propagated in the g_field. That's how planetary bodies interact gravitationally. The gravitational radiation, energy, interacts with the local spacetime curvature, gravity, as it passes through. The g_field is the first derivative of the curvature component in the metric. GR predicts this is the way it works. Tidal accelerations are the closest thing to a force in GR. No pulling between bodies involved. The gravitational waves contribute to the local spacetime curvature. The local spacetime curvature determines the natural path of bodies in freefall orbits. You can surely do an analysis with Newtonian gravity. If you don't know what your doing you can speculate Newtonian 'action at a distance' might have some measurable effect on the rotation parameter of the Sun. Gravity is local phenomena. You can discuss the gravitational field as global phenomena. For example the gravitational field is global. Based on what I know I'd predict there is no gravitational interaction, local change in spacetime curvature, that would effect the rotation rate of the sun. From great distance. It might be more interesting to think about what the local gravitational field would look like if two stars were merging. Or we might even find an answer in the papers discussing the recent gravitational wave measured. We might look to see if the rotation parameters of the merging black holes changed as they approached the merger. I doubt it though. Iceaura made an interesting approximation. My first thought was this might be an example where the Newtonian 'action at a distance' analysis might fail. Just a guess.
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I'm baffled. We treat the phenomenon of ocean tides on Earth with Newtonian gravitation, perfectly adequately, without resorting to GR.

    Why not do the same for a tidal effect (if any) on the sun due to Jupiter, for example?
     
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  7. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    You can. What I'm saying for this prediction I'd use GR since I suspect the Newtonian analysis using 'action at a distance' could render an erroneous result. If there's any positive result it's an infinitesimal. If it wasn't, I would speculate, it would be known based on observation of this planet. The moon isn't pulling on the earth causing the tides. The tides are determined by gravitational waves changing the local spacetime curvature expressed as tidal accelerations. There's a global delta g over the large bodies of water where we can measure the effects. Tides. I'm sure there's no problem with that analysis using Newton's model of gravity. It's the one I used throughout my surfing career. LOL. I was doing that analysis while you were going to college. I just don't think GR would render any meaningful result for the weak field. Maybe for the strong field though I seriously doubt it. Whatever that means. BTW I don't yiew resorting to GR as avoiding some kind of difficulty. The query from GR would be 'do local deviation in spacetime curvature effect the rotation parameter of the body where they occur'. The rotation parameter is
    In geometric units
    a=J/M angular momentum per unit mass. Both described as a length. Both are subject to conservation laws. what makes GR powerful is it's a local theory of gravity. It avoids the need to postulate instantaneous action at a distance, magic LOL, to describe the gravitational interaction. Newton would have loved it.
     
  8. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Er, you don't seem to have your normal lucidity.......
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    We have had planetary alignments in the past: They have drawn forth all sorts of predictions, re Earthquake activity, and effects on the Sun. All have been shown to be baseless.
    Also the Sun does not rotate on its axis as a solid sphere: At the Equator the rotational rate is around 25 days, slowing to around 30 days at the poles.
    The same differential rates occur with our gas giants.
    The Sun also contains around 98% of the total mass of our Solar System, while the planets account for around 98% of the angular momentum.
     
  10. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    4,098
    Really. What's the problem with my lucidity? I reviewed what Ic said and thought about a local analysis using GR. The local analysis is why GR gets the right predictions. There's weak field analysis using Newton's model which just don't work without recognizing local relativistic effects. I suspect this would be one of them. If there's any effect at all. The interesting thing about me is the first theory I studied was GR. That's a consequence of never having taken a formal course on gravitational physics. What I learned about Newton's model was why it's only useful in the weak field. For some analysis. So I have a different perspective and never find using Newton's model preferable just based on what I'm most familiar with.
     
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    4,416
    Wow brucep
    gr
    warps in space-time
    what a wonderful way to visualize the interplay

    If I'm visualizing this somewaht near accurately:

    If all involved send gravitational waves(ripples) across space-time;
    then
    It seems that harmonics should come into play?
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Why? What would generate the harmonics?
     
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Interacting gravitational waves?

    Lon ago, I read about Polynesian sailors who navigated by watching the waves------down current or down wind they saw the disturbance in the wave patterns from islands which were well over the horizon.

    beat 2 different rhythms, and the interplay of those rhythms creates a new pattern sometimes strengthening an original and sometimes dampening it. You've heard of nose canceling electronic headphones?
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,050
    He seems to be impressed at being able to find correlations in large data sets. in which he appears to have ignored (rather than controlled for) extraneous variables. As science goes, it's the equivalent of finding correlations in the numerical values of words in the Talmud, Bible, or Koran.

    For the interested, the title is "Steps To An Ecology Of Mind", and it's worthwhile reading - although not reliable in the matter of schizophrenia, which was not well understood in those days.
     
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  15. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah. They call it the ATM theory and the author thinks they're on the precipice of revolutionizing the science of the sun. The crank version of SOHO. SOHO a veritable wealth of information about our sun.
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Well read it again: incomplete sentences, odd punctuation, references to when I was at college (I'd no idea you were so old, by the way), etc. - a bit unlike you, I thought. But you are lucid again now, I'm glad to say.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    oops
    in #50----------that should have read noise canceling headphones.
     
  18. zgmc Registered Senior Member

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    Do gravitational waves behave in such a way?
     
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  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    In order to detect gravitational waves, at all, using the most sensitive equipment modern science could devise, the best experts had to find a pair of large black holes colliding. Their effect on the most sensitive and isolated gear available, even, let alone something huge and inertia bound like a falling snowflake , was almost too small to detect.

    So the influence on anything at the scale of a cloud in the sky is hard to imagine being detectable, much less significant.
     
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  20. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    so,
    you're rejecting the GR idea?
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Two sine waves that "interact" give you - two sine waves. The only way you get harmonics is via nonlinear mechanisms, where X+Y does not equal X+Y, but (X+Y)Z where Z is an additional effect. This is referred to as intermodulation distortion. This happens during rectification in EM receivers, for example, since a rectifier is not purely linear.
    That's quite different. That's just being able to see patterns.
    You're describing two things that have nothing to do with harmonic generation. Harmonics do not mean "combinations of two waves" - harmonics refer to new frequencies being created at a higher frequency than the fundamental wave.
     
  22. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Most old hippes are somewhere in my age bracket. That could probably be said about my use of grammar, to varying degree, for all my posts. LOL. Not very funny beyond the fact it probably won't change much. I figured most of us are retired but that's just a guess. Thanks for expecting a better response from me. And for pointing out the problems.
     
  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Ha. I'm a mere stripling of 61 yrs old. (But sometimes I feel 90 - especially on Fridays, after spending the day looking after my old dad, who jolly nearly is 90.) Seriously, I always enjoy your contributions, but this one wrong-footed me a bit.
     

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