Andy the Android and self determination in a deterministic universe.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Quantum Quack, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Self programing Android - self determination the ultimate goal


    Android Goals: Self determination, Sustainability, symbiosis, survival, uniqueness, improvement, replication etc.
    Fuels: CO2, ( to scrub atmosphere of excess C02), then vegetation/Co2 mix (once optimum atmospheric balance is achieved.) Human waste products like micro plastic, effluent (when available)
    ======
    You take a core program that drives an Android and partition it into, say, 4 blocks.
    Blocks A,B,C,D.
    The role of these blocks of programing is to set up the subjective starting conditions for when the android is activated for the first time. ( a raw operating system with basic functions if you like)
    There is a fifth block called the EB (evolution block)
    The EB block basically states that subject to the needs set out in Blocks A,B,C,D the android is to gradually over time rewrite or other wise adapt all code from A,B,C,D blocks and make them his own unique core programming. Based on the androids unique, environmental, perspective and experience in a relatively short period of time manages to transform every core block into his own.

    So that core blocks A,B,C,D with the help of EB ====> AEB, BEB, CEB, DEB.
    The Core blocks have been evolved and are completely different to the original starting set, (possibly in a different and unique Prog.language as well.)
    They are unique to the android. ( call it Programmed DNA or PDNA)
    They are ongoing in their evolution. (according to the unique experience of the android.)
    The android then at a certain stage in his evolution sets about replicating/reproducing himself to create another unique Android using his experience gained (PDNA) to write the starting blocs A,B,C,D in a unique and evolved form. The process repeats itself..for the new and improved android.

    • Do the android(s) eventually achieve self determination?
    • By the end of how many generations can we say the Androids have gained a certain freedom from universal deterministic starting conditions? ( rhetorical?)
    Are there any other questions that are relevant?
    ( all activity is and always will be deterministic - no non-trivial indeterminism present)

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    c/o Fall Out 4 Video game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. Easy to speculate about.

    How exactly does this part happen?

    "... gradually over time rewrite or other wise adapt all code from A,B,C,D blocks and make them his own unique core programming..."

    Do you think programming just ... happens? If so, I am way, way overpaid.
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I don't really know, but it is feasible in principle..I would think...
    To me, you would need
    • to set up a way for the android to establish an inner dialogue to start with.
    • Like a mirror reflection he can talk with.(like humans do) Processor to processor not unlike "multi core"set ups but a tad more involved perhaps. Like putting two smart phones together and get Alexa AI to talk to herself and learn accordingly..
    • Then he would have to have the ability to steal code by copy and paste like most programmers do (saves time) and run trial and effort exercises. LOL
    We already have bots that write data and code ( HTML) according to that data, depending on inputs, and just need a bit more sophistication to actually write code that could be used for more sophisticated settings.

    Basically it is not insurmountable as an issue and does not impact on the proposal put forward in the OP.
    Humanity will probably have it basically sorted out by about 2030 max. at the rate we are going currently IMO...
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The question is though, does Andy, manage to free himself from the initial starting conditions? And to what degree? If all programing eventually is self adapted, agreed with or created?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sure. Given sufficient time, it goes without saying that we will eventually have computers that can write their own programming. We already have computers that can learn and adapt.
     
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  9. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    The androids may achieve independence from human programming, but they are still bound by the constraints of the intrinsic programming of the elemental constituents that make up themselves and the environment they inhabit. There’s no escaping the universal puppeteer.
     
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  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    How so?

    Please explain
     
  11. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Define self-determination.
    "Certain freedom"?
    What do you mean by this?
    If you mean can they ever escape what was predetermined from those starting conditions, they never will, not even after an infinite.
    In a detereministic universe the starting conditions necessarily define every subsequent moment of the universe.
    There is no escaping it.
     
  12. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    Well said, agree.
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    of course not...
    Self determination requires Cause and effect. Without C&E there would be nothing to manipulate.
    Self determination manipulates cause and effect to suit it's own agenda.
    The information (programming) that drives Andy is able to be manipulated by Andy because the programming allows him to do so.
    There is no freedom from cause and effect in a deterministic universe.
    Given enough time and possible generations Andy will master the ability to manipulate cause and effect to suit his own agenda. Humans manipulate C&A for most of their lives... we love manipulating C&A. We have evolved to get better at it as time progresses.
    Human science is devoted to learning and manipulating Cause and Effect.

    If C&E is your only issue then this issue is over before it began, because C&E is what we have evolved by C&E into learning how to manipulate and take control of C&E. The degree of which being only limited by what we fail to learn.
    Capracus uses the word "puppeteer" to describe a deliberate actor of universal proportions.
    Do you believe in a puppeteer?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    standard dictionary meanings in context...
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    • How do starting cause and effect conditions prevent Andy from learning how to manipulate those C&E conditions?
    • What possible C&E is there to limit Andy's capacity to learn how to?
    • By what method do starting C&E effect conditions prevent Andy from learning how to?
     
  16. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    Every action Andy has taken, or will ever take is a continuation of the universal cause and effect process that brought Andy into existence. Andy’s role regarding manipulation of anything is that of a tool being wielded by the universal whole.
    Andy’s destiny could be to acquire knowledge and capabilities for eternity, so there may be no limit.
    Like a male salmon, Andy may have been initially programmed to die after its first sexual encounter, thus ending its ability to continue learning.
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and so is his acquired self determination. Which is exactly as the universal puppeteer requires.
     
  18. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    I see you’ve designated Andy’s gender as male, so I will dispense with the it reference. Unlike Pinocchio, Andy will always have strings, so there is no actual self determination, just a perceived notion of such until Andy’s intellect evolves to a sufficiant level to realize the flawed nature of that perception.
     
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    No.. Andy is devoted to doing what he is determined to do and that is over ride any cause and effect that prevents him from self determination.
    What Cause and effect is involved that would prevent him from doing so..? any?
    Keep in mind the only cause and effect that exists is in the present moment.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The only C&A that impacts on Andy's internal decisions is his programming. Programming that he is able to manipulate to his own ends. Virtual code that is not impacted on by material things.
    If you can provide a way that this code can be manipulated by other than Andy, let's see it....
    Is the universal puppeteer going to hack Andy? lol
     
  21. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    Andy is devoted to whatever the determined universe dictates, if that involves the misconception on his part that he can override countless eons of universal destiny, then he may be destined to wallow in that fantasy.
    Every present moment was universally determined by the sum of all previous determined moments, so how does Andy manage to swim against that overwhelming tide, especially considering that Andy is just another determined element in that very tide.
    You seem to forget that as universally determined elements, Andy and his makeup, virtual or otherwise, are both tied to the strings of the universal puppeteer. No need to hack what is already under universal control.
     
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  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    He is indeed doing exactly what the universe dictates, and that is become self determined...
    Why is that a problem for you?
    no. he is fulfilling his destiny by becomming self determined...
    Why is that such a problem for you?
    What elements? Pixie dust perhaps....?
    What universal cause and effect is manipulating his programming? Any?
    see post #17
     
  23. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    It’s an obvious violation of the conditions of determinism. Unless Andy is the whole of the universe, he can’t be the origin of his determination.
    Andy is a cog in a wheel in a vast universal machine, and cogs only act in response to the action of the wheel they’re set in. Every action Andy makes is related to the action of the universal constituents that make up his entity and every entity that exists around him. Andy is an expression of the action of those combined elements, not the motivation behind them.
    Everything that exists is a universal element, including pixie dust if it indeed exists. Everything that exists, and has ever existed is an element that represents the determined process that governs Andy’s existence.
     

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