Ancient Weapons

Discussion in 'History' started by Lesion42, Jun 5, 2003.

  1. Lesion42 Deranged Hermit Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, boys and girls! It's time for today's devastating ancient weapon!

    The Glaive: The Glaive evolved from the Billhook, an agricultural tool, when spikes for thrusting were added to the already formidable cutting abilities that had made the Billhook so effective with the peasant armies. You could thrust with the tip, puncture armor with the back spike, unseat riders with the hook, and cut with the edge. It was like a medieval can-opener for knights.

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    A glaive.

    Join us next time for another beautiful weapon of days past!

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  3. NenarTronian Teenaged Transhumanist Registered Senior Member

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    Looks like a halbeard to me
     
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  5. Lesion42 Deranged Hermit Registered Senior Member

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    No. But the Halberd also evolved from the Billhook. The Halberd developed into more of a heavy poll-ax with a thick top-spike. this is a Halberd:

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  7. AntonK Technomage Registered Senior Member

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    I believe I prefer the glaive. Always have been more of a sword man than axe. I realize that neither of these is simply an axe or a sword, but you can tell.

    -AntonK
     
  8. SwedishFish Conspirator Registered Senior Member

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    my goodness. it is quite can opener like. but swords are sleeker.
     
  9. airavata portentous Registered Senior Member

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    i prefer the glaive as well. it looks like you can wield it with smooth strokes and can tear out strips of flesh with it.
     
  10. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    I prefer the 12cc shotgun

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    Or if not that then a Katana...sleek, sexy and dangerous

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  11. Squashbuckler Registered Senior Member

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    I PREFER MY KATANA

    I prefer my katana that I use in IAIDO.
    Nothing beats a japanese sword.
     
  12. Squashbuckler Registered Senior Member

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    I thought

    I thought that they used those predominantly for pulling knights off of horses..
     
  13. rhetorician Registered Senior Member

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    I saw on the History channel that the big deal about the glaive was that it was armor piercing. Sword stood not chance against heavy plate, axes had no defense, maces were okay but still didn't do enough damage always, ball and chain could hit its welder, solid steal spears were so heavy you could only make one jab and if you missed you were on the ground.

    This pole arm was so effective because it could dismount a armored knight and then pierce his armor while staying a safe range, also it was much lighter than previous similar anti armor weapons,(especially over blunts).

    so believe me, since most people didn't have that kind of armor, if you were confronting a armored person you woldn't want a sword. if you did then it would have to be a falchion, but even with this you would have to his your enemy at his ring mail exposures since that is what the falchion was designed for.
     
  14. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    OK ok ok, right, thats a bill. Trust me, I took up wars of the roses re-enactment 18 months ago. I have practised with bills for that time. Thats a bill, ie pointy bit at the front, backspike, and curved hook, and as far as i know have always been htat way, think of the uses in a field for cutting with such an implement. Glaives are shorter pole weapons, essentially a heavy sword blade on a stick. They tended to be carried by people with armour, or tinnies as we tend to call them. Generically glaives are pole weapons, pole axes are the more commonly know kind, they have a spike at the bottom, and a big axe head at the top. So you block the top, adn the bottom spike gets you somewhere painful. there is a whole interesting method of fighitng with pole axes adn glaives, but its different with a bill, their hafts are longer, ie about 6 feet. You hold it in two hands, near the end (unless fighting someone with a pole axe) and form a big line, called, a bill line. You all then try to hit the people opposite you, block incoming shots, from hitting you or your mates. Bill lines work as a team, a glaive is more an individual weapon. Halberds, are later period and mroe continental as far as I know, im talking about 15th century england here.
    Now, on the bill, see the hook? you can catch other bills hooks or behind peoples knees with it, or tehir arms, wherever you can, pull them forwards, hurt them etc. The spike is obvious enough. But see also the angle between spike and hook? You can use that to push down on an opponents bill, trapping it, so your mates can then kill him.
    Bills are quite heavy, galives much less so, as they have less haft. A couple of well founded billmen could take a knight on a horse no trouble. However it takes a bill line to deal with a bunch of knights, because of their armour. You need to hold the knight with one bill, whils the othetrs hit him till hes dead. Remember by this time most knights had plate, but armies were composed muchly of archers, and billmen who jsut wore padded jacks, ie multuiple layers of linen cloth. Good ones were pretty much arrow proof as well. But really, if you meet a good bunch of archers your all goign down, and that includes the guys with the shotguns, since the archers outrange you.
    katana? ha, different fighting style, comparing it with this is kind of silly. As far as i know, japanese stuff tended towards lightness, os would it just shattter on the billhead? possibly.

    Right as for heavy plate, swords evolved to cope, some varieties got pointier, and longer and stiffer. I dont know how well they worked, but they made them and apaprently used them. I also thought that a ball and cahin had a longer haft than chain, ergo you couldnt hit your own hand. They have an advantage of sorts in that they wrap around the target, or over a shield. Maces were useful, very common in fact, same with axes. It only takes a small dent or two to distort a breatsplate enough so they cant breath properly, and once youve done that, you can capture them and ransom them, or execute them as you wish. That sort of thing would hang from a belt as a side arm.
     
  15. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, swords are cool. why else did they have so much cachet and were so popular for over 3,000 years? Get hold of a decent replica, swing it in your hands, feel how it demands ot be used.....
    Then go out and practise with others, its fun. Although at various itmes other weapons have been more important, eg spear in greece, and japan, or the bow, or indeed the bill, the sword always seems to be the personal weapon. I have one, its a bit light, hand and a half late 15th century, I need a single hander.
     
  16. airavata portentous Registered Senior Member

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    A mace is also a pretty cool weapon. It was used in europe as an iron ball attached attached to a handle. In ancient india it was much bigger and the handle and head were one. The head was bigger than the european one. How effective though, would a mace have been compared to a sword?
     
  17. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Well in europe, maces were also just heads of say 7 bits of metal brazed onto a central core, which was attached to a lenght of wood. or metal. Used primarily for bashing, ie agasint plate, or for breaking bits of people. But a sword is a cutting weapon, whether draw cuts or puncturing like the later swords, some of which were more like sharp pointed iron bars intended to be rammed into plate and weak points such as under the arms. So they arent quite comparable. but with a sword you had longer reach. I havnt used a mace, so no idea exactly how they functioned, but with swords, ahhhh, you can do so much.
     
  18. cthulhus slave evil servant Registered Senior Member

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    my persanle favorite weapin is a draw between a chain mace and spear. im too slow and my arms too long to use a sword well.
    to use a mace you esentialy hold the handle tightly then swing really hard at the opponint. then jump backwards and to the opposite side to avoid the ball coming back and braking your kneese. when it does bounce back it iwll hit your kneese or side. if you can aim kinda hi and get them in the midle of there back.

    as for the spear there too difrent to sumarize. depends on the wait, size and shape of the point, lengthe, and distance to target. i prefer the stile of placing me right hand at the butt (of the speasr stupid!) and the other below the center point. use the right hand to throw it and the left hand as a shaft to make it go where you want. for a long distance give it a slight upward arch or it will just hit the ground. against masses of people just get a line of spear men and archers and have them shoot into the air so it hits the croud. causes great panic.


    well those are my fav anciant weapins. i really prefer explosives. guns are fore sissies. bombs do more damage to. if your too close to use a bomb a good dagger thats a blade on both sides is exelant. can slide right under vests... but if they have a vest on might as well use a grenade.
     
  19. Lesion42 Deranged Hermit Registered Senior Member

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    Dude, the billhook was a tool for trimming hedges and the like. They're still used in Europe for this task. The Glaive came in many forms, and some were just a heavy curved blade, but has to have a back-spike, or else it is considered a form of partizan. A ball-and-chain is actually called a flail and was originally invented for seperating grain. The katana has a huge disadvantage in that it can only cut in certain ways, and if the blade is hit just right, it will shatter. A european sword will cut from any angle, and is flexible. My personal favorite weapons are Indian in origin: The katar, a large triangular blade extending from your fist, and the pata, or gauntlet sword. I'm in class right now, so I can't post the pics, but I will when I get home. Indo-persian arms kick ASS.
     
  20. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Your right, the billhook was used for hedge trimming, tree cutting etc, thats why it was used in war, an easily adapted cheap infantry weapon, and thats what you have in the first photo. A glaive is a single blade on a pole, often just single edged, with no backspike. A partisan is a spike, double edged, with lugs at the bottom, perfect for trapping anothers pole. In fact, looking at it, I am sure I have seen people with bills with heads shaped like that thing your calling a halberd.
    A quick google produces this list of definitions, which I agree with:
    http://www.historicalweapons.com/otherweapons.html
    I dont know anything about Indo-persian weapons, but given the amount of fighting that went on, no doubt they are interesting.
    But about swords, how flexible depends on the date, i got told off for getting a sword that in the opinion of the sword master was too flexible for the period. Late 15th century, they were tending towards more rigid ones for stabbing plate, and battering other weapons aside, often holdiong it on the blade, two handed stuff like you see in Talhoffer.
     
  21. fredx Banned Banned

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    According to Machiavelli, this kind of weapon was used most effectively by the Romans because they always insisted on paying strong men more than weaker ones, a thing which no other army in the history of mankind has ever done, and I know this because I have learned to read between the lines.
     
  22. Lesion42 Deranged Hermit Registered Senior Member

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    This is a billhook

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    What makes a glaive a glaive is the fact that thrusting capability was added.

    This is the pata.

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    It was a gauntlet that went up to your elbow and had a 38-inch blade extending from the fist.

    This is a katar.

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    These were standard equipment of an Indian soldier, and were used for quite literaly punching through chain mail. I have two undecorated ones that look similar.
     
  23. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    4,089
    Yes, thats a billhook, but then they added the point etc to make a bill. And a bill is still an agricultural implement in its own right, apapretnly they are useful for lopping off branches of trees. What makes something a glaive is that its a sword like, generally single edged blade wiht no spikes, on a pole. You can thrust straight with it, but theres no side spikes, no trapping capability.

    Apparently you could tell mens counties of origin apart by the shape of their bills.
    This is a galive:
    http://www.lancasters-armourie.co.uk/glaive.htm
    hell, if your in the UK, come along to a reenacting event, you can see all the stuff around, talk to knowledgeable people, and meet weirdos like myself who like running round a field with reproduciton weaponry and funny clothes trying to hit each other.

    The pata looks nasty, surely it has somewhat limited use due to its apparent rigidity cutting off wrist movement?
    Did Indians get plate, and if so what did they do about it?
     

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