Ancient Namibian Freeway overlays Ancient Agriculture System

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Walter L. Wagner, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    [We need an Archaeology section]

    Reviewing Google Earth I found this intriguing image:

    https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.28719,18.1230538,230m/data=!3m1!1e3

    It appears to show an ancient 'freeway' of about 3 lanes in each direction. It is apparently buried under soil, but visible from above as trees don't grow through it. The size is apparent from the vehicle dirt trails left by modern vehicles, which use it as a dirt road.

    As you zoom out, you will note that it is part of a very geometric system of roads (many of which are used nowadays as dirt roads in the bush). There are numerous geometric overlays connected by roads througout the region, if you scan nearby, covering about 10,000 square kilometers.

    As you zoom out, you will not a series of parallell 'channels' which are used nowadays, apparently, for animal-husbandry/grazing, as they take up portions of the channels. That is also a huge complex of channels in the Namibian bush country. Apparently, the roads were used for the agricultural ssztem in more ancient times of higher water (when the channels might have been 'canals', or more likely were farmed as lower-lying land.

    I've not read about this ancient road system anywhere else. The fact that the roads are extremely straight, very geometric patterns, show it was well thought-out. Reminiscent (to me) of the Nazca lines, but these are clearly roads, which were apparently serving to facilitate farming during wetter times (circa 10.000 years ago and before, when North Africa was lush, not a Sahara desert).

    Since this appears to be an undiscovered ancient road system, it appears worthy of further archaelogic investigation.

    I suspect the vehicles that used it were oxen-carts, handling a ton of traffic.

    One wonders if it was developed by these people: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...npoints-Namibia-home-worlds-ancient-race.html


    The D3446 gravel road is proposed to overlay one of the ancient roads, as per this article:

    THE construction of the gravel road D3446 in the Kavango West region is long overdue. This road was budgeted for in the 2002-2003 financial year and the money was diverted to another project in other regions. Last year in February 2015 the Roads Authority told a gathering that the road was budgeted for and the construction was due to start, but up to now nothing happened.

    THE D3444 is almost impossible to use without a 4x4 vehicle. As we declared war against poverty, the construction of this road is crucial. This road will easily link us with the Tsintsabis-Mpungu road and it will make it easy for the farmers and the community at large to travel to Agra in Tsumeb to buy medicine for their livestock. http://www.namibian.com.na/index.php?page=sms-all&date=2016-04-04

    Here are a few other views near the D3446:
    https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.2768544,18.1271845,7343m/data=!3m1!1e3 D3446 vicinity

    https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.2800216,18.1336359,7227m/data=!3m1!1e3

    https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.3366084,18.6859879,7271m/data=!3m1!1e3
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  3. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    What makes you think this is ancient and not just something recently made?
     
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  5. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    they are in the middle of 'nowhere'. they serve no purpose (other than some are used as dirt roads). they are heavily overgrown by trees on either side, with an occasional tree growing up through them. the underlying 'channel' system appears to be what they formerly served (and for which a few now serve as dirt roads). the underlying 'channel' system was extensive, required immense work to prepare. nowadays, the climate precludes its former use for farming. instead, now that it is no longer 'wet' in the area, the channels are used for animal-husbandry/grazing, with only about 1/2 of the former area under use. the last time it was 'wet' there was circa 10,000 BC. because trees do not readily grow through them, it means there is some hard underlay. the top surface appears to be dirt (which leaves vehicle trail marks, also readily visible), likely blown in over the eons covering some type of hard-packed clay, or concrete, or rock. needs investigation. here's a view of a neighboring geometric-road-grid showing a non-split wide roadway with vehicle tracks where cars/trucks occasionally nowadays use it. https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.3472437,18.6776068,211m/data=!3m1!1e3

    here's from a little further south, showing a split highway, with one of the two now re-purposed into a dirt road. you will note this is at the 'hub' of where these old roads connect from their geometric pattern. nowadays, the hub appears to be re-purposed into animal-corrals for animal-husbandry purposes. you'll note that the re-purposed road now diverts around the 'hub'. this type of road-grid is also very prevalent in the region of this particular shot, just a little to the south of the prior one of the original post. https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.6253142,18.1585936,212m/data=!3m1!1e3
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  7. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    here's a view of the ancient ag-system of 'channels' where crops formerly grew. if you zoom in from this link, you'll see that the 'channels' have, in portions, been re-purposed into grazing land by removal of the scrub-brush, leaving mostly grass for grazing. only about 1/3rd of that land has been re-purposed along those lines, it appears.: https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.1504037,18.2845847,13599m/data=!3m1!1e3
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  8. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying those features are man made? You realize that the distance between those features is about 1 mile and the length of the features is about 150 miles?
    Those features could be made by tilted strata or possibly igneous dikes, but man made, I don't think so. That would be the most extensive excavation works ever done by man times 100!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    yes, exactly. the 'channels' appear very uniform in width (about 1 kilometer) spaced about 1 mile apart (1.6 km, as you noted), and very lengthy (100+ km). there are not just dozens, but about 100+ of them. I've never seen a natural geologic feature that extensive, or anything close. Hence, it must be man-made. I suspect the 'excavation' was minimal, hence not canals but 'channels'. This would tend to accumulate/hold moisture in the depressions, drive it from the higher surrounding non-farmed land. but maybe they were very wide canals (not plausible). since we know it was wetter back then, this would have been a great way to obtain farm-able land in a somewhat drier area (though not as dry now, which apparently has subsistence animal husbandry only). the abandoned road system is what is of interest to me, as it is very clearly artificial (man-made), highly sophisticated/geometric and very clearly very old.

    show me somewhere else on earth where igneous dikes extend in parallel rows of about 100 miles in length, with about 100+ of them (i.e. about 100 miles of width as well). then I'll consider your alternative. in the meanwhile, it is far more plausible to be man-made, and the clearly man-made road system was developed to facilitate the usage.


    Note, I haven't counted them yet. This is a rough estimate at 100+
     
  10. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    10,009
    That is very poor logic.

    The ridges are sand dunes that are held in place by vegetation.

    http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PA00M112.pdf
     
  11. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what you are looking at but I'm seeing effects where the images have been stitched together - could it be an artefact of the way the images were obtained?
     
  12. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps was the German occupation in the 1880 build the 3 way road.

    I don't think 10000 ago they had carts
     
  13. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    What we are looking at is that ridge and valley system that is aligned generally east to west between the towns of Rundu and Mururani.

    If you look at page 5 of the PDF you will see what he is talking about. They are sand dunes - a very cool feature.

    The roads he is talking about certainly do not appear old to me, no idea why they are set up in that square with a crisscross pattern.
     
  14. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for the article: Quoting from it: "On this general flat topography subtle changes occur due to longitudinal dunes and associated inter dunal depressions and “dry-fossil” river valleys known locally as the “omirambas”."

    I suspect that is how the idea got started. Long 'sand-dunes' in parallel ridges. They likely had better/greener/thicker vegetation growing in the depressions. These were then modified and straightened. The article provides very little detail on them. It is highly unusual to find them so long, so parallel. Not certain how extensive the modification was. Nowadays, they are mostly overgrown, except for where used for grazing (with some areas walled, etc.; others opne-range, judging form the pcitures).

    You remain silent on the roads. These are clearly abandoned in many areas. Clearly not new construction. Your thoughts on that? Many are very wide (3-lanes width), often double roadways with one of the roadways in use as a dirt road, the other fully abandoned.

    =====================
     
  15. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    the roadways are not artificial effects. yes, there are some minor Google-Earth artifacts, such as color changes, etc.
     
  16. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    They are called "dunes" on the "Figure 3.4 TDS Distribution Map". However, they look nothing like dunes on the Google-Earth; rather low depressions separated by higher ground. I suspect the elevation difference is only a few feet. As I noted, they might have started out as dunes, but they appear highly modified.

    I'm not certain why you believe the roads are not old. They are not merely 'criss-cross' but form triangles, squares, trapezoids and other complex geometric configurations overlaid over that region. Many are clearly overgrown/abandoned. Why would you need a 6-lane freeway (now abandoned except for one lane) in that region for a few animals?

    It is possible that they are merely a few centuries old. However, they must have once served a function. There is no purpose for their existence now in such a dry area. Consequently, I suspect they are from when it was much wetter and producing lots of food, circa 10000 BC and before, or during the ice-ages. The local pupulace reworked the "dunes' to make them more productive, then added a complex road-system overlay to sustain their farming operations. Lkely oxen driven wagons, etc. This needs lots of archaeologic investigation.
     
  17. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    the germans didn't start building their own 4-lane freeway system (autobahn) until the 1930s. i seriously doubt they would be building intricate freeways in far-away namibia while not doing so at home first.

    i didn't believe they had carts way back then either. but i didn't know about these roads. clearly, if they served a purpose, it had to be when it was wetter. that was thousands of years ago, not merely centuries. quite possibly, the turmoil of the rising oceans, flooding all the good farmland (now we call it continental shelf), at the end of the ice-age might well have lost the knowledge of the wheel, only to have it re-discovered. but certainly the ancient civilizations of Egypt pf 5,000 years ago, etc. had the wheel. So I don't see why 10,000 years ago they could not have had the wheel too.
     
  18. el es Registered Senior Member

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  19. el es Registered Senior Member

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  20. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for the great links.

    The second one saying they are 'sand dunes' provides the same type of photo as the first link, and the Google Earth pictures I provided. They certainly don't look like any actual sand-dune nowadays. Nowadays, they are clearly used for grazing for animals along the lengths.

    It is possible they started out as sand-dunes, and were modified to be more regular; hence no longer looking like a sand-dune. This should be researched.

    Very interesting that neither of your links mentions the road-system, which is what this article/thread is about. Those roads are very obvious in the Google-Earth links I provided. This appears to be the first article to write-about/show those ancient roads! If they're anything like our modern roads, there's got to be a ton of ancient artifact (bottles, plates, bowls, etc.) discarded along the edges!

    If the estimate that that region could feed 5 billion people holds true, no wonder they needed an extensive road system!
     
  21. timojin Valued Senior Member

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  22. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    On page 25 there is a hole with water similar as there are several in the Siberia , the holes were produced by gas released. So I wonder al that low land of marshes should be reach in gas underground.
     
  23. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    this is to the south of the first post, not on the section with the channels. different type of road pattern. squares, triangles, etc. as geometric arrangements. there are literally thousands of miles of these ancient roads, now highly overgrown, though some with still obvious use. https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.5815658,18.1106643,3666m/data=!3m1!1e3

    here's one partially submerged at a watering hole. to the left it appears to be a foot path along the road to the watering hole. https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.5549623,18.0370632,227m/data=!3m1!1e3

    here's another watering hole covering the road: https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.5377252,18.0079166,227m/data=!3m1!1e3
    this one is next to D3600, a state highway apparently built atop the old road. here is a zoomed-out view to show the relative location of the watering hole to D3600 https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.5377252,18.0079166,3630m/data=!3m1!1e3

    here's a section where a river has changed its channel and now floods sections of the roads:
    https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.5377252,18.0079166,3630m/data=!3m1!1e3

    here are sections completely washed away by waterflow: https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.8505196,18.0050484,913m/data=!3m1!1e3

    nearby is what appears to be the remains of an ancient settlement: https://www.google.com/maps/@-18.8472274,18.0183614,1824m/data=!3m1!1e3


    this stuff just keeps going on and on!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017

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