An inconvenient truth

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Photizo, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    What's the matter PJ? It's easy to make shit up. It's much more difficult to do your homework and have some subject matter knowledge. You just want to make shit up.

    Additionally, what makes you think I implied that most grand juries are conducted improperly? Where did I say that a prosecutor acting like a defense attorney constitutes "legit" grand jury? And just what partisan am I exactly? You have seen my posts in which I confront our "conservative" friends. Before you go pointing fingers PJ your should take a long serious look at yourself. As my dear old mom used to say, when you point a finger at another, you have 4 pointing back at you.

    If you want to be taken seriously PJ, you need to do your homework.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    28,945
    I never called officer Wilson a bigot, despite the considerable evidence visible in his behavior. There is plenty of evidence for bigotry in the Ferguson police department's pattern of behavior, the Ferguson DA's pattern of behavior, and the physical circumstances of the town of Ferguson itself including its governance at all levels, but that doesn't mean Wilson's odd behavior matching that of a standard racial bigot has no other explanation.

    We'll never know, now.
    I don't. It's a normal, everyday, obvious fact of grand jury hearings that I have no problem with. I refer to it because you keep pretending that there was some sort of trial here, some exoneration of Wilson or explanation of what happened or verdict on the event, produced by this grand jury hearing or the DOJ report based on it or some such.
    Selective incomprehension this starkly highlighted is a symptom.
    What they are allowed to do, in theory or according to some nitwit or by law in Missouri, is irrelevant. They cannot cross examine witnesses, because they are unable to do so. They lack the expertise, training, time, investigative resources and privileges, experience, custom, and ability. And this is OK, because it's not their job to try the case. Everybody, including the Ferguson prosecutor who rigged the Ferguson grand jury hearing, knows this.

    So nobody was surprised when the Ferguson grand jury did not cross examine, say, Wilson, in the course of the hearing. They were not expected to. And the prosecutor who put Wilson on the stand for hours on end, without challenging him on his various conflicts with the forensic evidence, without harsh interrogation of any kind, in fact feeding him softball queries and key legal phrases designed to justify failure to indict (the prosecutor doing that) knew they wouldn't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,963
    Joepistole

    No one is trying to make Wilson a scapegoat.

    Police shootings need to be investigated thoroughly, not treated in such a manner as to do everything to ensure the officer is not charged. Then of course comes the issue of absolute obedience that is expected from society.

    That they can do no wrong. We know they can do wrong.

    We only need to look at the Police Department in Ferguson to see that, the very department that investigated Brown's death, the very department that allowed exceptionally dubious handling of the evidence, even Wilson's gun:

    There was, for example, Witness 134, who had been Wilson's field training officer in Ferguson and was also engaged to marry him. According to the DoJ report, Witness 134 saw Wilson at police headquarters right after the shooting:

    Witness 134 also explained that other than facial injuries, she did not notice additional injuries or blood on Wilson, but she did notice blood on the hammer of his gun, still holstered in his belt. Wilson asked her to retrieve latex gloves for him, which Wilson then used to clear and package his gun. Witness 134 did not actually see Wilson do this because her back was to him, although she could hear what he was doing. She also saw the envelope, presumably containing the gun, sealed with evidence tape, but did not know who eventually took it to an evidence locker.
    That passage struck me as odd because of what I remembered reading from the testimony of a crime scene investigator saying, under oath, before the grand jury:

    I inquired of its [Wilson's firearm's] whereabouts and I was told that someone had placed Darren Wilson's department issued side arm in an evidence envelope, which wasn't sealed. It was on a desk there in the detective bureau with other detectives from that department present.

    Interesting, no? Wilson's beloved heard him package up his firearm and saw the sealed bag, yet another law enforcement officer found that same weapon in an unsealed envelope.
    Then there's this bit from the DoJ report's summary of Wilson's account of events:

    In response to specific questions by federal prosecutors, Wilson explained that he had left his keys in the ignition of his vehicle and the engine running during the pursuit, so he went back to his SUV to secure it. In so doing, he was careful only to touch the door and the keys. Wilson then walked over to his sergeant, Witness 147, and told him what happened. Both Wilson and Witness 147 explained that Witness 147 told Wilson to wait in his SUV, but Wilson refused, explaining that he waited there, it would be known to the neighborhood that he was the shooter.

    Wilson then left, the report continues, via Witness 147's vehicle on Witness 147's orders, which is all well and good until we consider the grand jury testimony of Wilson's supervising officer:

    Q: Did you see Darren Wilson?

    A: Yes, ma'am, I did.

    Q: Where was he?

    A: He was behind, he was on the driver's seat of the vehicle.

    Q: Of his vehicle?

    A: Yes, ma'am.

    And:

    Q: Now, at this point is Darren Wilson still in the vehicle?

    A: Yes, ma'am.

    Q: Did he get out of the car when you got there?

    A: The only time he got out of the car is when I told him to into my vehicle and leave the scene.

    Witness 147 is also known as Sergeant Mudd, who resigned from the Ferguson Police Department for his racist emails after the DoJ report on Ferguson was released. He was also the first police supervisor on the scene of Brown's shooting.

    I shouldn't have to point out the mindset of those involved in this case, should I?

    What happened in Ferguson is nothing new. Certainly, when it is all put in front of you in one lump, it can be overwhelming, but when it is spread out as a day to day practice, there isn't that much wrong, or doesn't appear to be wrong if you are not constantly on the receiving end of it. Ferguson showed what happens in a community when racial profiling becomes a part of policing, especially when it is coupled with revenue raising. The targets will often be the minorities. Why? Because the racism and bigotry is so prevalent within that department that it had become openly obvious and worse still, openly practiced.

    Photizo's point is that blacks need to obey. That has been the gist of his argument throughout this thread. Should they obey police officers that see them as being less than human and target them unfairly and unnecessarily because of their colour? Should those officers be respected?
     
    pjdude1219 likes this.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519
    Everyone needs to obey, not just blacks. This whole episode is nothing but a case in point.
    Engaging in violent, pathological behaviors that destroy lives, property, and communities brings the law enforcement spotlight upon themselves. This isn't about targeting Blacks because of skin color, that is the lie in this whole mess. Blacks make themselves targets on account of their behaviors. There is no avoiding this. The degree to which those behaviors can be/will be tolerated by a given populace draws the line between groups, NOT skin color. If a group is isolated or finds themselves avoided they would do well to look at themselves honestly and seek to place the blame squarely upon their own shoulders for their part in the problem. To ignore that responsibility and pass it off as something it is not is dishonest at the very least and symptomatic of the very pathologies that plague them in the first place.
     
  8. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519
    More than likely a document whose 'findings' were 'discovered' by those driven by their own entrenched racial/political hatred. Essentially it was a token, if you will...tossing a bone to ravenous wolves who will by no means be satisfied with such a meager morsel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,054
    no joe that's you. i have done my research. you have repeated the talking points of proven racists as fact. I suggest you do the same and quit making baseless attacks against those who disagree with you. again you have shown a childish inability to accept anything outside of what you've decided to be true. you continue to ignore the concrete evidence and defend the violence committed against our citizens simply because there black. the simple fact remains that if micheal brown were a drunk white redneck threatening the police with a gun he'd be alive right now.

    you said and i quote" the fergason grand jury was conducteded properly"
    you said and i quote" the fergason grand jury was conducteded properly"
    the lets get away with killing black people group.
    your point? that you confront some of the stupidity and harm in the world doesn't make you a paragon of virtue? that push back against some doesn't make your own defenses of harm and stupidity ok.
    says the guy who attacks any and all who deign to disagree with him.
    take your own advice. instead of repeating the talking points of the racists killers your defending.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    Answer my questions PJ, prove your assertions. More bullshit isn't proof, it's more bullshit. You told me in your last post you weren't going to do the research. So if you have done your home work as you now claim, prove it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,054
    as i said i'll follow your arrogant demands when you defend your own statements. like how this grand jury was conducted properly even though the prosecuter was more interested in defending wilson than you know prosecuting someone. Its real simple joe. if you want people to answer to your childish demanding tone perhaps you should defend your lies i mean asserations
    and your posts reek like a dairy farm.
    your misreading my intentions doesn't make your bs true.
    as i said before defend your belief that 99% of grand juries are conducted improperly than you make demands on me. you don't get to make bs claim refuse to defend it or stand buy it and than yell and scream for others to cave to whinying. I given you all the information i intend to untill you start defending your beliefs. so before you try and issue commands to me clean up your own bullshit first. this is just like the your defense of sexual harrassment. sorry your not god maybe if you want others to obey your demands try you know meeting the simple requirment of trying to provide evidence for your beliefs.
     
  13. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,054
  14. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,963
    I am still waiting for you to "disprove" my links with "google".
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    I suggest you go back and read, this time with your eyes open.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,963
    And you are still to post a single link to apparently disprove what was in those links.
     
  17. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    28,945
    Unless the perps are police officers, in which case their violent, pathological behaviors that destroy lives, property, and communities, are often not even admitted to exist by the responsible governance and dominant political groups.
    This is about how the kind of thinking that alternates between "blacks aren't targeted because of their skin color" and "blacks make themselves targets on account of their behavior" - sometimes in consecutive sentences , for chrissake - comes to be accepted as normal in a community like Ferguson, and not a pathology in need of serious mental health intervention as well as a disqualification for employment in the police force.
     
  19. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    28,945
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,783
    Some good news from the BBC:

    ==================
    11 March 2015 Last updated at 17:48 ET
    Ferguson police chief Tom Jackson quits
    Thomas Jackson will leave the department on 19 March

    After a federal report alleged widespread racial bias in his department, the police chief of Ferguson, Missouri, has agreed to resign.

    Ferguson came under investigation after a white police officer killed an unarmed black teenager in August, sparking weeks of unrest.

    Several other Ferguson officials have stepped down in wake of the report.

    US authorities have vowed to reform the force, possibly dismantling it.

    Thomas Jackson had resisted calls from protesters and some state leaders to step down, after the shooting of Michael Brown and the weeks of demonstrations that followed.

    The city said it would be giving Mr Jackson a severance payment and would pay for his health insurance for one year.

    The resignation is effective on 19 March at which time an acting chief will assume the role.
    =====================
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,963
    And what behaviour is that?

    Driving, walking, sleeping in their own home while black?

    The emails they sent on State time and using State resources were not "discovered", not were the details of their breach of the constitutional rights of black people "discovered". Those were on record for all to see.

    When you treat blacks as a form of raising revenue through racial profiling, and you do it as openly as Ferguson did it, then at some point in time, something will happen that will draw attention to it.
     
  23. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519

Share This Page