An inconvenient truth

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Photizo, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    It is indeed an inconvenient truth. Brown wasn't the virgin defenseless angel he was portrayed to be by his family and supporters. And the evidence just doesn't support their version of events. The evidence proves Officer Wilson, and those who were assaulted and whose property was destroyed by lynch mobs were the real victims in this affair. Those are the inconvenient truths of this affair. There are plenty of other legitimate examples of injustice out there, but this isn't one of them.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
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  5. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

    The cities and states, within the USA, with the worse crime, poverty, debt and corruption are controlled by Democrats. In Massachusetts, run by democrats, welfare fraud is encouraged by lack of action. Chicago, for example, which is a democratic stronghold, is the home city of president Obama. This city has the highest murder rate with most of the murder black against black.

    For some reason, the Democratic party, although historically pro-slavery, pro-segregation and pro KKK is favored by most of the blacks. They can't learn from history, if it is revised. It is not coincidence that the blacks are once again in dire straights under the democrat control. The democrats are good at deception and have convinced the blacks that the Republican party is the enemy. However, the hard data shows republican blacks are better off in nearly all categories including wealth, education and security. It has always been this way.

    If the blacks and the liberals prefer to believe in lies that make feel good or insecure, while ignoring the hard data, things will not change for the blacks, because the party of segregation benefits by the status quo. One clever tactic that was invented is called diversity. This is where you convince all the nonwhite minorities to separate themselves into third world ghettos within inner cities controlled by democrats. It would be funny if not so tragic. Then you give them enough welfare and segregated language education to keep them there. Then you blame the whites republican, making it harder to leave since the underground railroad to safety looks like a trap; Republicans.

    Liberalism makes this easy to pull off, since it is all about emotions and not hard data. All you do is paint a pretty picture, and liberals want to believe the imagery So many bad social policies have been integrated into culture because of lack of reason and fact check. How many liberals believed you could keep your doctor and premiums would come down by $2500 per person, since it felt good? Does diversity feel good?
    Nutter likes this.
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    your bigotry, ignorance and political zealotry don't make inconvenient truths just lies and distortions. so no as always when you start spouting this crap your wrong.
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    I'm not saying brown was an angel but the evidence showed some pretty glaring holes in wilsons story to.
  10. Nutter Shake it loose, baby! Registered Senior Member

    • This post is inappropriately inflammatory, and promotes a racial stereotype without good evidence.

    Hear! Hear oh students!

    The science is certain and unequivocal.

    Indeed, 'all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours ? whereas all the testing says not really'.

    Dr. Watson said he hoped everyone was equal, but added: 'People who have to deal with black employees find this not true.'
  11. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    I'm more concerned with the fact that the mainstream media is purposely feeding the racism angle, right from the beginning and even after the grand jury decision. At any one time even up to the past few days, CNN, for example, prominently featured half a dozen articles perpetuating different aspects of the false narrative.

    My main issue with police procedure is that I think it would be smart from now on for every cop to carry a body-camera all the time.
  12. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Wilson's story was not perfect (no eyewitness story should ever be expected to be), but it does fit the vast majority of the evidence.
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    This is another instance of the police officer being lied about by "witnesses" to the killing. From the start the media never once presented "facts" about what was learned about the killing but only what the media wanted to lie about. Even when reports about the close hand to hand combat were verified the media were very late on informing the public but instead only incited the public to make them agitated enough to burn down buildings and put police as well as other citizens at risk. The media were responsible for all damages , in my opinion, and inciting a riot which is against the law in most states. Yet nothing was done about them, why not?

    I'd like to suggest again for the umteenth time that all cases should never be exposed by the media until the people on trial are found guilty or innocent. This would help in many ways. one of which the media couldn't lie about the case to jade the people of the community about whoever is on trial so that they can seat a impartial jury for the case. Then during the trial the facts will be known and the truth can then be expressed by the media. This could calm a volatile circumstance into a much calmer one.
  14. The Great Red Dragon Registered Member

    Very inconvenient. He was not the gentle giant he was portrayed to be by the leftist media or his relatives. Just like Darren Wilson isn't a racist murderer. All lies, conjured up to sway and control the people to think one way. Such a shame.
    Nutter likes this.
  15. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    The richest blacks in the US are Republicans?

    The best educated are Republicans?

    Most scientists in this country are Democrats. That's a problem.

    I have a problem with the level of aggressive engagement by law enforcement in relation to the severity of a perceived threat or offense. When officers are not conditioned to opt for non-lethal alternatives such as pepper spray, stun guns, or tactical retreat, they are more likely to resort to using excessive or lethal force, which in turn increases the potential damage for all parties involved. As for video surveillance, I don’t think you can ever have enough. It was a camera that objectively documented Michael Brown’s criminal behavior in the convenience store, there should’ve been one in Darren Wilson’s car and on his person, and there should’ve been one on every utility pole between store and the site of the shooting.
  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    I cannot criticize a store owner if they think they cannot afford it but it is good to have them there. Body cams & cameras in cars should be mandatory for all police. Some on the street I won't complain about but 1 on every pole would have me tempted to hit them with a bat.
  17. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Hopefully, you just fell for the media misinformation, because that bit about the training isn't correct. There's a protocol for use of force that has increasing force for increasing threats, in steps. The problem here was that the perp was much bigger than the cop and was attacking him.

    A stun gun might have been a reasonable alternative, but Wilson didn't carry one because they are bulky and the department didn't have many. Perhaps if they were designed better and were standard issue, they might be used more.
  18. Bells Staff Member

    Perhaps the local police departments would find their money better spent on training and providing stun guns and tasers and most importantly, better training in all aspects of their employ (especially in conflict negotiations), than spending so much on militarised gear such as as we have been seeing used in Ferguson since the shooting occurred.

    Perpetrators are often different sizes and yes, sometimes they will be bigger than the police officers who approach them and sometimes, they will simply be kids playing with a toy pistol and a police car rushes up and the police leap from their vehicles and open fire.

    What should be a concern is the sheer increase of aggression by police departments towards the population and the very very military style of their equipment and behaviour, especially towards what had started as peaceful demonstrations which were met with militarised riot police. Acting as though they are entering a war zone or battle zone will often result in people being killed unnecessarily.
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Wilson didn't use any "miilitarized gear". The equipment and tactics used to try to stop the rioting are a completely separate issue.
    Do you have any data to support that, or is that just speculation based on what you read in the media? And if it is just based on what you read in the media, do you really consider a small handful (single digits) of shootings by police in a population of 300 million to be excessive? That strikes me as exceedingly rare.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    I meant the initial protests which were not riots and which were met with what looked like the military. Perhaps a of the angst today would not be as bad if those initial peaceful protests were not met with what looked like a military attempting to dampen down a political movement.

    Why don't we ask Bounkham Phonesavanh, also known as Bou Bou. Do you know who Bou Bou is? I'll refresh your memory..

    Baby Bou Bou was sound asleep in what should have been the safest place in the world when the men came. His whole family surrounded him. After a house fire in Wisconsin the Phonesavanh family had moved in with relatives in a tiny town called Cornelia in north-east Georgia. There they shared a converted garage attached to a home on a sprawling rural block.

    This was back in April and that night 19-month-old Bou Bou – short for Bounkham after his Laotion-born father – slept in a cot next his parents' bed. His three older sisters were on mattresses nearby.

    The men slipped up the driveway in the darkness, threading their was through the narrow space between the family mini-van with its four child seats and the spare play pen that leant against the garage wall.

    With a kick or a battering ram they smashed in the door at about 2am on a warm still night and lobbed a stun grenade into the room. It landed in Bou Bou's cot.

    The long seconds after the blast were a blur, Bou Bou's mother Alecia tells Fairfax Media.

    Stun grenades, also known as flashbangs, are military weapons designed to blind, deafen and disorientate enemies with a searing flash and an explosion louder than a jumbo jet taking off.

    Alecia remembers seeing a man wearing a black tactical suit, helmet and mask holding her husband in a chokehold with one arm twisted behind his back. The two older girls, Emma, seven, and Charlie, three, were beating at the man, screaming, "Don't hurt my daddy!"

    Around that moment she heard Bou Bou's terrible wail. She turned and saw another of the masked men lifting him out of the cot and turning away from her so she couldn't see the baby. She tried to run to him but someone else was shouting at her "Sit down and shut up." Bou Bou was taken away.

    Alecia didn't know it then but her family had just been subject to the execution of what police like to call a "no knock warrant".

    Some days earlier a police confidential informant had managed to buy $50 worth of methamphetamine from Alecia's nephew at the house. After the purchase the SWAT team was called in to arrest him, but he did not live there. Some hours later they found out where he was and went to the home and knocked on the door. He was led away without fuss.

    And as obscene as this story is, it isn't a standout. It is just one in the stream of aggressive tactics used by police in the course of their duties.

    Even in the immediate aftermath of Brown's shooting, the reaction by the police and their mishandling of the case was a sight to behold.

    On Saturday August 9, a young unarmed black man called Michael Brown was shot dead by a white cop in the suburbs of St Louis, Missouri. Many locals were incensed, not just by the shooting but by the hostile police response in the hours after Brown died. No ambulance was called and members of his family were barked at by angry police when they arrived at the scene. Brown lay on the street for four hours as a crowd grew and tension increased.

    Local and then national media arrived, as did police reinforcements.

    Across America people were shocked by what they saw. Rather than lines of police officers, the reinforcements looked like soldiers. They wore the same camouflage gear people were used to seeing in news reports from Iraq and Afghanistan. And like soldiers they arrived in armoured cars and carried rifles.


    Tim Lynch, director of research on criminal justice for the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, has written on police militarisation for years. He fears that such units in American police departments risk fundamentally changing the relationship between people and their government, and says many citizens have already lost basic constitutional protections as a result of aggressive police.

    "If you dress and arm police like soldiers, and then tell them they are involved in a drug war, that is how they are going to behave," he says. This is particularly dangerous because some police are given military training. "Police should be there to protect people and their constitutional rights. Soldiers are not concerned about someone's rights on the battlefield."

    This is what happens when simple policing is touted as being a form of war. Welcome to the bastard child that is the remnants of the Drug War. And this becomes even more evident when the police force uses recruitment videos that contain images of breaking down doors, using military gear to make arrests.

    Nevertheless, police recruiting videos, as in those from California's Newport Beach Police Department and New Mexico's Hobbs Police Department, actively play up not the community angle but militarization as a way of attracting young men with the promise of Army-style adventure and high-tech toys. Policing, according to recruiting videos like these, isn't about calmly solving problems; it's about you and your boys breaking down doors in the middle of the night.

    As for Bou Bou, he is just yet another statistic. One of many and probably many to come unless police officers receive proper training.

    Single digits in a week? Maybe.

    However I am curious as to where you get your assumption that deadly shootings by police is in the "single digits" when the Government does not release such figures.

    Criminal justice experts note that, while the federal government and national research groups keep scads of data and statistics— on topics ranging from how many people were victims of unprovoked shark attacks (53 in 2013) to the number of hogs and pigs living on farms in the U.S. (upwards of 64,000,000 according to 2010 numbers) — there is no reliable national data on how many people are shot by police officers each year.

    The government does, however, keep a database of how many officers are killed in the line of duty. In 2012, the most recent year for which FBI data is available, it was 48 – 44 of them killed with firearms.

    But how many people in the United States were shot, or killed, by law enforcement officers during that year? No one knows.

    Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

    That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

    “What’s there is crappy data,” said David A. Klinger, a former police officer and criminal justice professor at the University of Missouri who studies police use of force.

    Several independent trackers, primarily journalists and academics who study criminal justice, insist the accurate number of people shot and killed by police officers each year is consistently upwards of 1,000 each year.

    “The FBI’s justifiable homicides and the estimates from (arrest-related deaths) both have significant limitations in terms of coverage and reliability that are primarily due to agency participation and measurement issues,” said Michael Planty, one of the Justice Department’s chief statisticians, in an email.

    Even less data exists for officer-involved shootings that do not result in fatalities.

    At any rate, it's a bit more than "single digits".

    Could you please cite your sources for your claim that it is in single digits?
  21. Bells Staff Member

    To put it into some perspective, here is some of just how much the police is becoming militarised and more aggressive.

    Police in North Little Rock, Arkansas, for instance, received 34 automatic and semi-automatic rifles, two robots that can be armed, military helmets, and a Mamba tactical vehicle. Police in Gwinnet County, Georgia, received 57 semi-automatic rifles, mostly M-16s and M-14s. The Utah Highway Patrol, according to a Salt Lake City Tribune investigation, got an MRAP from the 1033 program, and Utah police received 1,230 rifles and four grenade launchers. After South Carolina's Columbia Police Department received its very own MRAP worth $658,000, its SWAT Commander Captain E.M. Marsh noted that 500 similar vehicles had been distributed to law enforcement organizations across the country.
    What would highway patrol be without Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles... I never knew the highways around Utah had so many IED's and faced so many military style ambushes.

    Police or military?

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    • In 1990 the Pentagon sent $1 million in military equipment to police.
    • In 2013 the Pentagon sent $450 million in military equipment to police.
    • Since the 1033 program began the Pentagon has sent more than $4.3 billion in military equipment to police.
    • One-third of all military equipment sent to police is new, raising questions about Pentagon waste.
    • Fargo, North Dakota, spent $8 million on military equipment for police, though the area averages only two murders a year since 2005.
    • More than 60 per cent of SWAT raids investigated by the ACLU involved a search for drugs.
    • 68 per cent of SWAT raids against minorities were conducted in a search for drugs, only 38 per cent of such raids against whites were in search for drugs.
    • In 1984 about 26 per cent of U.S. towns with a population between 25,000-50,000 had a SWAT team.
    • By 2005 about 80 per cent of US towns with a population between 25,000-50,000 had a SWAT team.
    • Almost 90 per cent of larger towns now have a SWAT team.
    • At least 54 per cent of all botched SWAT raids are conducted against ethnic minorities.
    • In 2011 and 2012 nearly 80 per cent of all SWAT raids were conducted under a search warrant, meaning the targets were only suspects, not active shooters or hostage-takers.
    • There are roughly 137 SWAT searches every day in the U.S., or about 50,000 a year, according to Professor Pete Kraska of Eastern Kentucky University's School of Justice Studies.
    • 28 per cent of all arrests in the US involve an African-American.
    • 35 per cent of all arrests that result in the death of the suspect involve an African-American.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  22. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    I guess I’m a victim of the media powers that be who edited this video of a South Carolina police officer properly following use of force protocol.

    And this video of the tactically correct shooting of Tamir Rice by this Cleveland officer.

    Which is why officers ideally have a variety of tactical options to achieve a more favorable outcome, options Wilson claims to have considered.
    Whether he reasonably considered these options cannot be verified, we only have his word that he did. And as the one juror asked, why didn’t he just drive away to escape this perceived lethal threat of a fatal beating or losing control of his gun? Are officers as Wilson stated, actually trained not to retreat to save their lives?

    You would think that Wilson could’ve easily kept eyes on the suspects until backup arrived without directly engaging them.

    The non-projectile stun guns are available in compact sizes, and would be more appropriate in a close quarter engagement. Whether Wilson was authorized to personally obtain and carry one is another question.
  23. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Why is it when the media puts on most shootings they are mostly when a white officer shoots a black person. I'm certain that white people are also shot in similar manners that the black people are. It is just very peculiar that the media exposes the public to mostly something that will only incite people and very little truth about the shooting as the media has done with this shooting.

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