Amnesty International and Hamas

Discussion in 'World Events' started by BenTheMan, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    Unless someone is drugged, has a severe mental illness, or is hypnotised, they always have a *choice*. Some options may seem far less attractive than others, but they still have the power to choose their response.

    Think hard, S.A.M. Would it be appropriate for the home owner to fire a gun from behind his wife and children? Would it be appropriate for the home owner to try and rush the invader while the invader has a knife held to the throat of one of his children?
     
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  3. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    I ask again---"So Hamas has a uniformed military?"

    I sleep with a gun under my bed, as I'm sure you would have guessed

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    So you're saying that Hamas has no choice in torturing and killing civilians is suspects are in league with Fatah? Would you also consider the West Bank under occupation?
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you were in a group where one of the group was collaborating with an enemy that had stripped you of home and security, what would you do?

    60% of the West Bank is not available to Palestinians due to the more than 700 checpoints. It takes hours to get to school, obtain acess to fields that have not yet been appropriated by illegal settlers, goods can only be sold through Israelis (or simply rot at checkpoints) entry/exit visas are issued by Israelis, marrying a west bank resident loses the entry card for Jerusalem even if you were born there, studied and worked there or had lived there for generations and have parents and family there. It is not possible to go out of or to the west bank for medical reasons or to visit relatives without getting permission from Israelis. And roads in the west bank can only be used by Jewish settlers, while Plaestinians have to go around them on old paths. Building homes in the west bank requires permits from Israel over 90% of which are rejected. There are 500,000 illegal Jewish settlers who have formed settlement blocks there who are "defended" by the IOF and provided infrastructure (police, electric, municipal services, water, roads, bus stops) by the Israeli govt

    So do you consider the west bank as occupied?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2009
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  7. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    Yet somehow Fatah has managed not to torture and kill the citizens living there...
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No they're simply standing there while the Israelis do it while at the same time having lost a great deal more land to Israel. Did you read my post on the demonstrations against the wall? During fatahs reign the apartheid wall has come up as have several settlements taking over Palestinian lands. Fatahs impotence in the face of encroaching jewish settlements is clear to the Palestinians.

    Moreover fatah violently suppresses demonstrations against Israel like the ones in January against the Gaza offensive.

    Which is probably why they have lost the support of the Palestinians
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    But I'm not sure from that which it is: are you agreeing that Israel targets civilians (at ten times the scale, note), or are you agreeing the Hamas does not?
    That's recent. Back when Fatah was the bad guys, they did all that stuff - and the Western Press documented their barbaric Islamic practices, with stories like this one: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,489898,00.html
    Hamas has an organized militia. Not everyone is in it - women and children are usually not, for example.
     
  10. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    'Usually not'. Heh. So you admit that any Palestinian woman and child is a potential insurgent? Great, now the Israelis can just mow down Palestinian women and children with impunity, claiming that they are combatants.

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  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you mean like they already do.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    They were recently killing women and children in proportions within I think 50% of their proportions in the general population.

    So they don't really need an excuse, apparently.

    But the illustrated point was, of course, that most accusations against Hamas seem to be applicable to Israel as well, except at larger scale, and without the excuse of having been blockaded and invaded.
     
  13. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    I guess that's what happens when you take the fight into heavily populated urban areas.

    And whoever attempted to illustrate that point failed miserably. Killing civilians because they might be armed combatants in the future is not the same as targeting combatants and killing civilians due to collateral damage.

    Israel does it, so why condemn Hamas?! Juvenile logic.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    "Take the fight"? You mean start a fight in a concentration area you have fenced off?

    And use artillery, bombs, tanks, WP munitions, and so forth?
    What are you talking about, and whose logic is that?
     
  15. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    You make it sound as if Hamas hasn't been firing rockets into Israel.

    Why wouldn't you? You respond to a violent threat in a manner which minimises casualties on your own side.

    Don't play dumb, it doesn't become you.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I do? Nah.
    You might do that if you didn't care whether you killed lots of women and children and non-combatants.

    Israel is the aggressor, right? We are dealing with some reasonably realistic description of all this, I hope?
    OK: you're full of shit, and misrepresenting my arguments. If you want to rail on about some mythical world in which people are not blaming Hamas for indiscriminate rocketing, leave me out of the discussion.
     
  17. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    Then you'd understand that firing rockets at civilians of another nation could be construed as a sign of aggression, yes?

    Hamas shows such little regard for the lives of its own civilians when it draws the fighting into heavily populated urban areas, so why should the Israelis give a shit and bend over backwards to prevent civilian casualties? If Hamas is going to conduct its insurgency from behind the shroud of the civilian population, then it should accept the civilian casualities as an inevitable consequence and quit bitching about it.

    Maybe. Assuming that that is correct, it would be the height of stupidity to provoke that aggressor by firing rockets at non-combatants of its civilisation, and not expect a response. It's the equivalent of punching some bullying jock's girlfriend, and acting stunned when you get your ass kicked.

    I am.

    You have yet to condemn the Hamas rocket attacks. And S.A.M has even gone so far as to argue in defense of Hamas' behaviour, claiming that their status as a 'occupied people' give them a free pass to do whatever the fuck they want.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ever been the victim of a home invasion?

    I'd like to see what you'd do.

    Especially if the criminals decided they liked your house and stayed put for 60 years
     
  19. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    /ignores pointless rant

    Yeah I can just see you moving into the backyard and making peace with them, even bending over and grabbing your ankles so they can screw you more easily.

    Yup, I shore can

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  21. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    Yes, just go on ignoring my deconstruction of your simple minded arguments. I've noticed that willful ignorance is a skill of yours that you have honed over the years.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2174573&postcount=31
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The day you are willing to give up your home to an invader is the day I'll believe you stand by your pitiful deconstructions. Otherwise, it's just rhetoric.
     
  23. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    The day you have the conviction to stand by the people you claim are oppressed is the day I'll believe that you aren't just another armchair insurgent.
     

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