American Society in 20 years

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by apendrapew, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Yeah, sure. Now tell me how long that would take to implement? ...then try to tell me what a great idea it is. New RR tracks, rights of way to buy and maintain, stations to build, power supplies to run, buildings torn down to accommodate the tracks/stations, etc., etc. Good idea??

    The best idea I can come up with is to just wait until we run out of oil, then someone will invent something that will work and force us to use it. Perhaps in the meantime, we'll have to walk or bicycle to work and the stores, etc. Take you best girl out for a date on a bicycle-build-for-two??

    Baron Max
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  3. A Canadian Why talk? When you can listen? Registered Senior Member

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  5. bconn29 da thread killa Registered Senior Member


    Why is time and effort to implement this a bad thing? It would create new jobs, create a new force in the economy, and it would help to even out some of the problems with oil while slowly phasing it out.

    The best idea you can come up with is the same old idea that America has been using forever. It never uses forsight and causes complacency. The wait and see menatlity has caused nothing but trouble for us. Look at 9/11 for a shining example.
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just ask how damned long and how much money it would take to implement it ....and I thought it was and still is a damned good question.

    The main problem with "mass transit" in America is the widespread housing in relation to the job markets. Many people live long, long distances from their place of employment and, worse, they're spread out over great areas. To provide adequate mass transit systems, you must, absolutely MUST, get the person from his home to the job with a minimum of single auto traffic. In the USA, that task is almost insurmountable! ...due to the widespread living areas. And it means a helluva lot of rails, rights of way, stations, etc. That's a lot of money!

    Well, the "leap-in-regardless-of-the-consequences" is also a pretty piss-poor technique for solution of problems. As is the "Throw-more-money-at-the-problem" method.

    No, I don't know what or how to do it ...or even if it should be done. Perhaps the "suffering" method is the one that will WORK?! Just keep going until gas hits $25/gallon and see what happens!

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    I don't have a helluva lot of time left, so I'm not sure that I'm the one to worry or to ask about it. I'm ain't so sure that I give a fuck.

    Baron Max
  8. bconn29 da thread killa Registered Senior Member

    If that is true than why are you spending sooo much time arguing about it?
  9. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Oh, it doesn't take much of my time. Besides, I've made my fortune and now I'm enjoying the fruits of my labors (which involved fuckin' over so many poor people and stealing all their money!) ...tiresome work, ya' know. Poor people don't have a lot of money, so ya' gotta' fuck over a whole lot of 'em to retire early!

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    Baron Max
  10. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    This applies only to VERY primitive people. We're talking hunter gatherers. The population levels that can be supported by this level of technology is VERY LOW. The development of agriculture signaled the end of this era since agricultural societies can support much larger populations than hunter gatherers. Societies that adopted agriculture [or became civilized] soon surplanted the hunter gatherers who could put up little resistance in the face of such overwhelming numbers. So even if the average guy had it better as a hunter gatherer, agricultural societies were much stronger and the march of progress began.
  11. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    So our enlighted savage decided that rather than sit around all day wasting his ample free time, he'd haul giant stones across the desert to build the pyrimids? Gimmie a break. Those giant structures were built with slave labor, no doubt working much more than three hours a day.

    Here you have a point. But I don't think it's because they had so much free time. On the contrary, it takes so damn long to make stuff by hand, why not spend a little extra time to make it special? With mass production the goal is efficiency. With hand made items, each item is unique and is an extension of the maker.
  12. kmguru Staff Member

    Perhaps - Supply and Demand influences the freetime. If there is nothing to do and no products to be had or no products need to be produced, then you have freetime. Before MP3, either you had a lot of freetime or spent time in other activities. As the product or service becomes available, you fill your time to aquire them which is to find time to produce them or consume them. As more products and services are produced, for some reason, people create a need from their 'wants' to aquire them and hence the economic cycle. Those who, resist the temptation of the 'wants' would have free time to smell the roses.

    Considering the weight and girth gain of people in America, a large number of people spend their time on the couch or chair...
  13. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

    Actually it is thought that the bulk of egyptian labor was performed by the idle masses when the fields were flooded by the rising of the nile every year. Able bodied peasants took time to work on the great projects as the ultimate show of patriotism and, in their particular mysticism, a way to keep the universe working. More detailed work was done by semi-permanent villages devoted to certain crafts like sculpting and painting.

    Slavery isn't very efficient in big projects like they used to do. You would spend more energy guarding the slaves and keeping them in line than it would take for your own men to do the work.
  14. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

    Golgo, you are not quite correct. There was a politician, whom simple mentitioning a mass transit system during election campaign cost (probably) presidency. I thing it was Walter Mand... (I don't remember family name exactly and lazy to look up). He ran againgst Reagan. Carter was also trying to do (or, at least, to say) something about auto addiction. The truth is: Americans (average) don't like it. Joe prefers sticking head into sand and listening for the gread mongering right wingers who are promising unlimited consumption until the second coming. American churches are true temples of consumption, the is great deal of "scriptual" pro-consumption doctrines have been created. Well, it's not wonder, humans are making Gods in their image

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    , after all.
  15. Satyr Banned Banned

    American society in 20 years will be this way:

    A bunch of pampered, naïve, unthinking dolts spewing inanities, pretending to think, watching movies with consistent ‘happy endings’ and ‘positive’ messages’, listening to rebellious music in the attempting to differentiate themselves from the norm, avoiding all suffering, interpreting reality in the best possible way, protecting their inherit rights, turning need into right, wallowing away the hours, filling the emptiness, whining about reality and then dying.

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    Wait, that’s what today is like.
    Why wait 20 years?
  16. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

    Everything will be black and white, no color, and it will have been many years since anyone has had a good orgasm.
  17. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    If anyone has watched the Broken Saints series, a rather impractical but unbelievably beautiful occurance happens through a plot that makes hollywood scriptwriting look like 1st grader essays. the story ultimately ends with every human on earth having the words of jesus, buddah, (whatever prophet you believe in), or basically the core message all of them conveyed (theoretically the same), transmitted to every human on earth. Rather than men with this glorious knowledge setting out to verbally convey it to small crowds of people, the message is broadcast INTO THE VERY CONSCIOUSNESS of EVERYONE on earth. It's not likely that it will happen, in fact, damned near impossible, but society would shift overnight, for the better, in ways we probably couldn't even comprehend, wars would stop in their tracks, crime would literally vaporize, the world would be a utopia, at least for a few precious generations.

    I think it's funny how "American churches are true temples of consumption", dixonmassey, seeing as christian philosophy tends to be anti-consumerism. I hope you mean the bible belt culture, and not christian belief itself.

    but in reality, if the blessed thoughts of non-man-handled, pure divine thought couldn't be sent out to everyone (hate to figure the odds on that), I think our ability to summon energy could increase faster than the population rate. numerous research initiatives on practical fusion energy generation are underway, solar power is cheaper by the year, and the decline in oil production only means more research funds will be devoted to energy research, increasing it's rate of development in time to beat a possible economic crash (which in itself is not likely, least not as much as some seem to want it to be). more energy, more capability, more evolution, and definetly more expansion into other worlds and stars. We all live in an age of no frontiers, with all the reasonable landmasses claimed or territorialized, and the pressure cooker we call earth will soon blow over, and people will NEED to get off this planet, to colonize, to claim, to start anew. the spread of information and the energy we will unlock will only serve to allow such events. exodus.

    in the next 20 years, who knows, technologically or philosophically, how far we will go
  18. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

    Honestly, after studying Christianity I have no slightest desire to engage into studying other man made religions to refute each of them individually. However, I do know something about Christianity to greatly doubt your vision. Common, man, Bible is a magic book. One can justify pretty much anything with it. There are 2000 denominations seeing holy book in quite different light. Whose message are you going to transmit? Besides, I am more than certain, had been Jesus (book Jesus, real or imaginary, it does not matter) just a guy next street (without that Holy supernatural stuff), you could not have standed the guy. Because, book Jesus is not about Love (as most ignorant of Bible Christians, i.e. overwhelming majority, think). Book Jesus is about blind obedience to him precious. Nobody likes controlling freaks except members of totalitarian sects. Take that Holy stuff away, and Jesus is just another modern day "Huru" cashing on human condition. There are hundreds of those. I know first hand the power of those people over the certain type of folks. It's ABSOLUTE. Transmitting the message of total obedience, it sounds like the way to paradise on Earth.

    Read darn book you believe in. There are thousands of murky passages to fight and die over.

    Really? There were few sects over the entire history of Christianity who where "anti material".... Out of thousands. LOL. Early Catholic Church could be considered anti-material (ideology sold for lay people, at least). But protestants of all kinds??? Sorry. You don't see the meaning of reformation a.k.a. greed revolution within Catholic Church. Sure, I realize that declared doctrine of Catholic Church differed greatly from the lavish life style of its top clergy. However, reformation threw out entire doctrine which did not suit well to do (compared to the past) burgers anymore. Reformation liberated protestants from guilt over another (less lucky) human beings condition. Reformation destroyed the idea of collective salvation. Reformation atomized society, everybody was supposed to "count his own blessings" or lack of those. No blessings in this life? Oh well, Jesus has better plan for you sometimes, somewhere. For those who has something to lose, reformation gave "sense of self-complacency", which "sanctify" their particular walk in life. For those who don't have, religion (generally) always provides solace. The verse about a rich man, needle eye and paradise? What could be easier, hundreds of scripture experts will always interpret it in an easy way (for those who have).

    Sweet dreams. It's dangerous for Universe to let humans in their present conditions out, don't count on that. In other words, there are two main moderns means of social legitimization/manipulation: religion and science. you are trying to unite both to show that unabraged consumption is not only divinely possible (would Jesus let his people starve?) it's scientifically possible too. It's funny to see SUV stuffed church parking lots. That Jesus crowd thinks approximately along your line. I've spoke with quite a few of them.

    Conversation: Oil may be ending. Really? But we would starve without oil, right? I guess. But, God should provide his children, scripture says. Yes, it does. Well, then I'm going to buy even more fat assed SUV. Homeless? What homeless? It's their fault anyway. They don't trust in Jesus enough, or they would not be homeless.

    In two word: Christianity = sanctified selfishness and greed.

    Scientifically, humanity is in dead water. Technology consumes past scientific breakthroughs very fast. Humongous amount of information (mostly worthless) hides this sad fact. It's very likely that in 20 years technology will able only to tweak things here and there. This naive technological optimism is so foolish because it's based mostly on the PR stories spread by bancrupt grant seekers to get those $.
  19. kmguru Staff Member

    A taste of things to come.....

    Scattered in a Storm's Wake and Caught in a Clash of Cultures (excerpt)

    Published: October 9, 2005, New York Times

    SALLISAW, Okla. - Word spread fast after the evacuees arrived. Everyone wanted to see one up close. Soon, the gravel driveways wending through the grounds of the old church mission were backed up with trucks and minivans filled with locals bearing bottled water or leftover clothes or just wanting to talk to the Louisiana people, tell them how sorry they were for what had happened to them.

    The Methodists brought cribs. A dentist sent a box of toothbrushes. A Presbyterian was recruiting for the choir. Members of the Sequoyah Memorial Hospital Auxiliary showed up to take the evacuees shopping at Wal-Mart. A beautician wanted to do their hair. And someone donated a box of formal wear that, the volunteer sorters noted, the evacuees were not likely to need anytime soon.

    In the beginning, it seemed that wherever the Louisianans went, people stopped them on the street, figuring that because they were black, they must be from the hurricane. A man went up to one of them, Gerald Cooper, a former merchant mariner, and said, "Here, put this in your pocket," as he stuffed a $20 bill into Mr. Cooper's hand.

    "It was like we were a fad," Mr. Cooper said.

    In the chaotic first weeks after Hurricane Katrina, several vanloads of Louisiana exiles, including Mr. Cooper, arrived disheveled and sleep-deprived at the old mission grounds here, miles from the edge of nowhere in the middle of eastern Oklahoma.

    They were among the tens of thousands of people forced out of the Gulf Coast and into unaccustomed holding places where no one knew quite what to make of them. They had suddenly become nomads in their own country - pitied, gawked at and shuffled from place to place, stuck in the middle of a long journey that would take them through several states merely to get to this way station from which to plot the rest of their lives.

    In time, they found themselves caught in a web of red tape and cultural miscues, clashing with locals over the tiniest of things, like how to cook grits or season meat, or over the life-and-death question of why they did not get out of harm's way in time.

    Tensions rose, and by the end of the month, the Louisianans, grateful though they were, could not wait to get out. And the local people, well-meaning and overwhelmed, were just as relieved to see them go.

    An Odyssey Begins

    Their time at the mission would become both an object lesson in the psychic strains of disaster recovery and a laboratory for the challenges of sheltering victims so different from their caregivers.

    This particular colony of exiles, thrown together at random, was first delivered by bus and military cargo plane to Fort Chaffee, an old Army base in westernmost Arkansas, which became a kind of Ellis Island, some 9,000 evacuees passing through its gates the first week after Hurricane Katrina. There, Red Cross workers assigned them to vans that would spirit them even farther away.

    It was as if they had been hurled into another galaxy, a stubbled land of raccoon woods and Andy Griffith towns, Indian smoke shops and creased-faced cowboys in pickup trucks.

    As they passed from Arkansas into Oklahoma, the evacuees made little comment to their cheerful Presbyterian drivers, too exhausted to register an opinion. The convoy exited the highway at the billboard that said "Jesus" in big cursive letters. It passed Hog Creek and the tractor supply shop and rumbled along unmarked roads.

    The land was becoming sparser and drier. They had passed the last traffic light miles ago. There were no other cars on the road and no more stop signs or signs of life other than cows resting under the locust trees. They had seen no other black people since leaving Arkansas. Now they saw no people at all. Some of the evacuees began to grow fearful.

    "Where is they taking us?" Nitayu Johnson, a hotel maid with a young daughter, remembered thinking. "They trying to slave us. They going to make us pick cotton. We gon' die."

    In fact, they were bound for Dwight Mission, an old church outpost whose log cabins and stone dormitories were used as a boarding school for Indian children decades ago, and which now serves mainly as a campsite for local church groups.

    There were 19 people in the first wave of arrivals, dominated by a blustery clan whose patriarch, Louis Green, a widower, was once a pool shark who had made a living breaking players with more money than sense in the pool halls of Louisiana.

    Mr. Green, 65, arrived with 5 of his 19 children, 5 of his 29 grandchildren and four smaller households who had banded together with his family for protection in a fetid school gymnasium outside New Orleans in the darkest days during and after the storm.

    Soon afterward, Eugene and Helen Johnson arrived, a retired couple, unrelated to Nitayu Johnson, who had lost each other at the Superdome when Mrs. Johnson, in the early stages of dementia, never made it back from a trip to the restroom.
  20. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    Yes, christianity does not place value into worldy concerns, at least it is not suppoesd to. Granted, after a few thousand years, man has screwed the many core ideals of christianity and other religions to the point where we can't even recognize those ideals, just the layer after layer after layer of humanization we caked over it. The Catholic church, baptists, any christian group that claims to be "the right" christian group is probably guilty of such, and even those that don't do so outright are still stained with the practices of man. The bible, which was writen by man, is no exception. It contradicts itself in so many ways that I can't even begin to comprehend how people manage to decypher what it's trying to say. But I think there's a core message, in any and all true religions (not just christianity), that has just been horribly corroded by man's meddling.

    But since this is not a religious forum, back to the point shall we? Those bankrupt grant seekers are the ones who make things happen. The internet both became publicly common AND matured within ten years. How did this happen? Those poor grant seekers with vision were invested in, and they changed the course of humanity. What else could happen in the next ten years? Or the next twenty? Tweaking? Give me a break! We're a quantum leap ahead of where we were technologically twenty years ago, and assuming singularity exists, we should theoredically be advancing even faster.

    But yeah, the world could be turning into a flaming ball of shit, dixon. Hypocritical christians in their SUVs will continue to ignore the homeless, and god knows, the world's just going to give up and freaking die with the oil decline. It's people that predict this that keep humanity alive. It's pessemists that since forever have predicted doom, only to have their predictions countered by actions to prevent it. In fact, this isn't the first time we were so sure we were running out of oil. It's been predicted in the past, and those dates have flown by. So as long as we have pessemists predicting our dooms, I have reason to stay optimistic

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  21. kmguru Staff Member

    Great post weed. We will muddle through Earthquakes, Tsunami, Hurricanes, Forest fires, Avian flu and so on. A large number of people will die over the next few years. But the world population will keep filling in....

    The present process of government is not working, new ideas are needed to solve our future problems.

    Cautious Optimism is the way to go....

    End of Days....anyone?

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  22. Russ723 Relatively Hairless Ape Registered Senior Member

    I say we promote religion.

    I don't mean leaders, just everyday joes.

    I am 21 and my projected life span is 120.

    In 20 - 25 years stem cell technology will increase that to 150+

    I think it is safe to say that the biological engineering problems will be solved by then.

    I WANT an ignorant mortalist theist to volunteer for dangerous work.

    Who'd want to be a cop if they knew one bullet could fuck up the next 15,000 years?

    Not me.

    Don't worry about the population, many religious dumbfucks will refuse the immortality treatment.

    Fine by me.

    Those that accept it won't be allowed to have children.
  23. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

    Nope. Those bancrupt can't do anything worthwhile except getting $. Otherwise, they would not be bancrupt. Luckily, there are few % of those who can, once in their life time at least.

    First, internet cannot be considered a scientific breakthrough by itself. It's rather technological convergence of various fields of different maturity.
    It was cold war. Science, especially defense related institutions, was carpet bombed with $. There was no need for fradulent PR at that time. Internet have changed the course of humanity? That's rather amusing statement. Well, today, folks download porn instead of buying it in print/etc. That's certainly will affect the course of humanity.

    Who argued about technology? Not me. I just said that fundamental sciences are rather in dead water. Technology cannot be advanced forever without progress in fundamental sciences. I am not sure about quantum leap either. Semiconductor technologies are not the only in use. Little quantum leap occured elsewhere for the past 20 years except quantum leap overseas.

    Aside giving a few bills, I ignore them too. I'm non Christian hypocrite. I don't like SUVs though.

    Nope, it's "don't worry be happy world". Just stick head into sand, listen strories about nano technology, etc. and Hollywood like happy end will come.

    Well, I am an optimist. There should be enough of stuff for my life time. Certainly, I would like to know more about those wrong predictions pessimists have made as well as about the guiding council which takes actions to prevent evil sayings of pessimists from coming true. Things in the world are rather developing without guidance/vision/etc. It's chaotic opportunistic world. The question is: are opportunities boundless (like in American dream) or there is a limit on the human arrogance.

    Never heard of past "day of the gloom" predictions. I even don't hear anybody predicting exact oil run out date today.
    dooms remain,people just learn how to live with/ignore them.

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