# America: the Melting Pot

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Fraggle Rocker, Jun 10, 2007.

1. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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Now, I know what you are thinking. Why are Middle Easterns called Caucasians. Well, there is very good reason. The original mtDNA haplogroup is understood to have started about 170,000 - 130,000 years ago. The European Haplogroup is younger than the Asian Haplogroup, which can only mean that they are genetically closer to Middle Easterns. Proof of this is found in in the mtDNA of the two populations. H, I, J, K, T, U, V, W and X , which is found in nearly all lineages from Europe, North African and Western Asian Caucasians. If I had to choose two races, I'd have to Choose African and Caucasian, or white and black.

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3. ### RenrueSomeoneRegistered Senior Member

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219
Chatha,

The group that traveled to the Mideast weren't Caucasians. As you are aware, Caucasian comes from the Caucus Mountains which is a modern day usage for Europeans, Middle Easterns, and Indians. East Asians and Europeans share a common ancestor, but that ancestor is neither 'Caucasoid' nor 'Mongoloid' as both those are modern day terms. Also, the East Asians split was before the Indo-European identification (check mtDNA chart for split).

Just as our primate ancestors are neither 'monkeys' nor 'chimpanzees,' we share the common ancestor, but are not sub-species of our cousins. So again, your assessment is incorrect (in my humble opinion). Just stick with "Eurasian ancestor" or of the sort.

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It appears to me that you find 'white' and 'black' catchy. Maybe because you like the Yin and Yang. However, human division is not a white and black thing, it was a random occurrence in evolution. Also, Europeans are a minority of the Caucasoid race, and the majority are much more tanned skin. If you are still adamant in calling East Asians 'Caucasians', then the right term would be "tan" and "black."

[Renrue]

Last edited: Jun 24, 2007

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5. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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(laughs) This is where you are making a fool of yourself. If East Asians and Caucasians share a common ancestor, and virtually every person in the world, apart from Africans, came from these ancestors, why should it matter what we call them? Afterall, Caucasoid and Mongoloid are descendands of H.Erectus in Eurasia.
Yes, they split, but this has nothing to do with the fact that Eurasia was the common groud for all Asians and Europeans. Right?

HAHAHAHAH! Excuse me for a minute, while I laugh so hard that I short circuit my keyboard with drool. Its very clear you are beating around the bush or you have no idea about my posts. I'd give you a day or two to revise them and see how I came to my conclusion. Like I said, East Asians or any Asians for that matter are not a sub species of Eurasia, but if you want to say there is something called race, then they are indeed a result of a different type and form of biological and cultural evolution. Now, the FACT is that the European mtDNA age is lower than the Asian's, which can only mean that Euroasians (the common ancestors of both Europe and Asia) migrated to Europe later than to Asia. Call them Europeans, call then Asians, call then whatever you like, but you can't erase the staggering relationship. Me persoanlly, I call them white and black. And I know it offends some people, but facts are facts. I have used mtDNA and DNA to proof my point.

HAHAHAHHA1 Its a free country. Plus, I am not the inventor of the terms "black" and "white". Its a general term which has some merit.

Last edited: Jun 24, 2007

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7. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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Renrue,

You should check the encyclopedia for the definition of Caucasoid. Like you said, there is nothing wrong with reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasoid

8. ### RenrueSomeoneRegistered Senior Member

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Chatha,

I believe I should be laughing. It appears you haven't read like I asked. Pity, since reading would CLEAR all this up. I'll give you a day to revise your post because you're making a bigger fool of yourself. Wait, too late.

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Like I said, I do not deny that Europeans and East Asians share a closer link than we do with our African counterparts. Does it really matter what we call our ancestors? Not really, but it does matter when you identify a group of people with a label already in usage.

Your foolery (i.e. HAHAHAH1, unstructured babbling paragraphs) won't get you anywhere. I don't know why I seriously even considered debating with you, as your spelling is atrocious as you spend no time proofreading your posts. It only leads to the conclusion that your posts are simple uninformed posts. Please spend at least more than 30 seconds on your posts instead of regurgitating your bashings of the keyboard.

This one gave me quite a chuckle. Not only is that wrong, but is entirely bull. Please do not pull this information from you know where. That belongs in the toilet.

As much as I would like to respond to your entire post, your bad attempt at a paragraph burns my eyes. Instead, read your own post and read this wonderful quote:

[Renrue]

9. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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Exactly. And that's the problem. If Suzy and I don't like each other for totally illogical reasons, we'll probably muddle through life okay because there are plenty of other people to hang out with, work for, etc. But when an entire nation--or at least a large influential segment of it--doesn't like another nation, that's how wars get started.
We don't "exploit" them and they don't work "cheap." In a rural region where very few heads of households earn $20 an hour for the very good reason that the cost of living isn't high enough to make it necessary, it's ridiculous for punk kids to expect to be paid$20 an hour to cut grass--and not even provide their own hardware. The little pendejos don't think they have to learn to work for a living because they're all going to grow up to be investment bankers, even though not a single one of 'em can make change for a dollar without a POS terminal. We pay ten bucks an hour for yard work and that is a princely sum in a local economy where food and rent are cheap and everybody wears blue jeans. The Mexicans think we're crazy and they fawn over us.
It's easy for us Americans to look down our noses at people who haven't had a bloody revolution, or at least not one that worked. The fact is that quite a few nations on this planet are still struggling with despotic political systems, many of them far worse than Mexico's. Mexico already had two revolutions, and after all that time it's become such a big joke that the major political party, with a straight face, calls itself the "Institutional Revolutionary Party." It's not easy to "fix" a country, especially when the U.S. kind of likes Mexico the way it is. When you figure it out, be sure to share your secret with the people in Uzbekistan, Moldova, Macedonia, Paraguay, North Korea, Uganda, Mongolia, Iran, Afghanistan, the Philippines, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, and a few dozen other sad places.
No, they just toss that in to give themselves a veneer of respectability, just like Lincoln tossed in race as a red herring to make the Civil War seem like a noble cause. The Americans who are now scuttling on the surface of the linoleum with anti-illegal immigration picket signs are the same ones who have been biding their time under the linoleum for the past fifty years, waiting for racism to become fashionable again. They all say they "don't mind" Latinos who come in legally, but they don't date them or want them living next door or competing for their job. Sure it's a big country and the minority of them who honestly feel that way make up a large enough group to get the interviews and the photo ops, so the racists can stay in the background, but in my observation they are indeed a tiny minority.
Well that is not what I've said and we'll just have to respectfully disagree on your underlying premise. I spent most of my life in Los Angeles, which in those days was arguably the illegal immigrant capital of the country, and they contributed more than they took back. On the one hand you say we're "exploiting" them by paying them less than their labor is worth, and on the other you say that they take more than they give. How about making up your mind?

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Would that be the American race? We overthrew a sovereign nation, the only secular pro-Western one in the entire Mideast, and turned it into a giant gang war. Our corporations are as corrupt as the communist parties of the old Soviet Bloc, and out citizens are so dumb that they elected a President who can't even speak his native language.
Yes yes, I lived in L.A. for four decades. Teachers have been abandoning their posts since the 1960s, when New Math and Transactional Analysis turned classrooms into zoos. Not to be unsympathetic to your plight or ungrateful for your admirable desire to keep trying, but pretty much all American kids act that way these days. They are all little pendejos. Truancy is now institutionalized, kids are actually allowed to skip a certain number of days per year without an excuse or any punishment. Vandalism is rampant, bullying is an epidemic, they're having sex on campus, often in public, and colleges have to teach remedial English because a huge percentage of them are allowed to graduate despite being functionally illiterate. I have a friend who threw in the towel when an eight-year-old anglo student tried to push her down a stairwell. Their parents just don't give a damn. Their fathers either ran off or their mothers threw them out because they weren't perfect enough, they've been raised by a steady stream of "uncles." In their defense the parents between them have to work three jobs to make ends meet, so people like Bill Gates can sell us software that barely works and buy himself a private island.
Yes yes, I lived in El Sereno for many years. Nonetheless, the programs you speak of, while they indeed siphon tax money off from more worthwhile pursuits, are a drop in the bucket. Have you ever added up all the money that your district wastes on "administrative" staff who do nothing but make life harder for teachers, students and parents alike? What's the teacher-to-administrator ratio in your district? Are teachers really that incompetent that they require that much management? Do you? I wasn't joking before when I said I know people who have master's degrees in "Educational Administration." They should be ashamed to admit it.
Well you have to admit it's a backhanded compliment to the American Dream, that the biggest nutritional problem among our poor people is obesity.

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The teenage pregnancy rate is out of control everywhere. Your barrio school is hardly special in that regard. A lot of girls want to have babies because for the first time in their lives they'll have someone who loves them and who is actually around, not off working two jobs or screwing his secretary or her delivery boy.
You do realize that you just illustrated my point about how screwed up the public sector is? Surely they could have done something more effective with that money. Some large pendejo with a master's degree in "educational administration" made that decision for you, right?

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Yet the pattern has held for more than two hundred years: No matter how much contempt we heap on immigrants--legal or illegal--their children, and with utter certainty their grandchildren--assimilate and become indistinguishable from other Americans. It's especially true of Latinos, who have always had the highest intermarriage rate of all ethnic groups, only recently challenged by a new wave of less clannish and racist Asians. You can hardly find a "third generation Mexican-American" to tally. Amusingly, today's immigrants as a generic class share a lot of values with the "conservatives" who bash them. Religious, capitalist, anti-drug, anti-gay.
I told you the same thing above. American kids don't want to get their precious little hands dirty. The unions and the other good-old-boy networks make it difficult to get work done affordably. A friend of mine wanted to do just a rudimentary job of finishing his basement, and a contractor bid something like $10,000 on the job. He rented a truck, picked up four mojados at Home Depot, bought the materials for a few hundred bucks and had them load it, then paid them$1,000 to finish the whole damn job in a single day. They thought he was insane and were embarrassed to take his money. We're not talking about "taking jobs away from American workers." We're talking about introducing American "workers"--if you can call them that--to reality.
Hold it dude, my wife and I between us have about fifty years of municipal government experience and she was even a social worker. Most of what you say is blatantly untrue. Undocumented immigrants simply cannot qualify for most of those programs and you can be sure that the social workers are not in business to look the other way. Yes their kids get a break, we Americans are kind of soft on children. Maybe we realize they will grow up to be good citizens, get good jobs, and pay their taxes.
It's kind of charming. Reminds me of Europe, where everything is multilingual.
Not on our watch they didn't. You are way exaggerating and we've got the credentials to call you on it. Illegals get medical care because doctors are in the business of helping people and public hospitals won't turn anybody away. Their children get services because statistically they will more than repay us for them during their working lifetimes.
You can blame that on two generations of American parents who have abdicated their responsbilities and raised two generations of little pendejos. This country would not be noticeably safer or cleaner without illegal immigrants. We'd still have the Bushes to worry about, after all.
Ten bucks an hour for cutting grass is hardly "cheap," in an area where people raise families on lower wages than that.
We lived in Latino neighborhoods more often than not. She loves them. She tried to get a job as a substitute teacher in the barrio. Even though she has an M.A. in English, from a presumably satisfactory government university, they wanted her to pay money to take an English proficiency exam. Then they told her they would put her to work in a ghetto school all right, twenty miles away in south L.A., while presumably the substitute teachers in Torrance would get to drive to East L.A. These are the M.A.s in "Educational Administration" at work. Instead she got a job working in a private tutoring academy in the San Gabriel Valley, working with Asian-American kids. She discovered that it was fulfilling to work with kids who are not disadvantaged, if that's what the system forced her to do.

BTW, you are obviously an honorable man even though we disagree. My apologies for getting off on the wrong foot. If you're a teacher--especially today--you're okay by me.

10. ### John99BannedBanned

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22,046
But that is not close to what i said:

I want one person here to name one other country where so many ethnic groups are represented in such large numbers as in the U.S

So many, as in different.

You raised some good points but the Romans granted citizenship to non Roman born (and they were happy for it) but they stayed in the same place. They did not flood Rome.

Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
11. ### Baron MaxRegistered Senior Member

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Hmm, are you saying that we should be fuckin' hypocrits as a nation? A nation, my good typist Fraggle, is made up of people just like you and Suzy, who don't get along. Take millions of you and Suzy, and that makes up the people of a nation. You're waaaaaaay off the mark, Fraggle. People are people, in small groups or large, in private life or in government ....and you can't change 'em just by saying so!

Interesting that you say that, but just prior to that, you said, "We don't "exploit" them and they don't work "cheap." See, Fraggle, you're missing the whole point of supply and demand. If you can't get lawncare done for $xx, then maybe you have to pay$yy for it. But you don't do that, do you?

Nope, you seek out people who you can take advantage of ...illegal Mexicans! You're exploiting them in exactly the same way as big companies who hire them so they can pay less for the labor ....and ain't nobody here would call that anything but exploitation of the illegal Mexicans!

So it's the USA's responsibility to take care of people that their own nation can't??? And what of all those other places that you mentioned? Should we also take care of all of those people, too? Why be selective?

Fraggle, they're ILLEGAL immigrants!!! They sneaked into this nation illegally and they work illegally and most everything else they do is illegal .....and yet you want to reward them for doing something illegal??!!

Baron Max

PS - damn, you sure type a lot to say so damned little. Is your time worth so little? Or can you type a million words a minute?

12. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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Actually we don't seem to have much of an illegal immigrant community up there in northwestern California. The population is too small for them to be able to stay under the radar. And I fail to see how paying somebody what in our county is a university graduate-level wage to do high school dropout-level work is "exploitation." American kids aren't simply following the laws of supply and demand. They're off on a different planet where they can get what they want without having to work for it. Gee, I wonder where they learned that. Maybe in school, where they keep getting promoted from one grade to the next without actually having to complete their learning assignments?
The laws of this country are set up so that it is impossible to avoid violating them. I think the figures are that on the average each of us violates one every hour. They're just bullshit set up by people in power to keep the rest of us in our place. Don't get hung up on them. They change them every time they feel like it, and it has very little to do with "right" and "wrong," and even less to do with what any of us actually wants. Have you not noticed that the Religious Redneck Retard in the White House routinely violates the Law of the Land, the Constitution, and doesn't even bother trying to cover it up? The Supreme Court has not upheld the Constitution since FDR began using it for toilet paper in 1933. Eisenhower, a player in the "Republican" Conference of the Republocrat League, established the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, completing FDR's dream of making the entire 1929 Communist Party platform a reality and effectively supplanting the Constitution and turning America into a socialist worker's paradise with all laws open to subjective interpretation by those in power. With role models like that, how can you pontificate to any individual--inside or outside the country--that the laws nonetheless apply to him?
I'm a fast typist. My momma insisted that I learn to type in high school and I worked my way through college as a typist. Little did anyone suspect back then that the day would come when almost everybody would spend a substantial portion of every day huddled over what is essentially a typewriter keyboard. I get a kick out of the early "feminists" who refused to take typing classes. Today they can barely keep up with their e-mail.

13. ### Count SudokuBannedBanned

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1,229
How on Earth do you figure illegals contribute more than they take?

There is no "American" race unless you count the AI.

That would be the work of Jorge Boosh and his neo-Cohens (or more accurately the neo-Cohens and their Jorge Boosh) who planned to invade Iraq even before 911. I wouldn't be surprised if 911 was a false flag opereation just like the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.

No argument there. Who do you think wants all these illegals?

No argument there either. How is adding millions of low IQ anti education Hispanics going to improve the situation?

Why did you leave? When did you leave?

New teaching methods turned schools into zoos? Perhaps it was intergration?

I'm not American and I doubt "all" kids act this way. I suspect there is a huge supply of teachers wanting to work all white schools and a much smaller one wanting to work in all black ones.

Ah the fruits of liberalism.

Ditto.

Ditto.

The teenage pregnancy rate is way higher among Latino girls.

Are all blacks indistinguishable from other Americans?

Immigrants in the past were of the same race, didn't come in such huge numbers, wanted to assmilate and the government wanted them to assimilate. Compare that to today.

While first generation illegals tend to be hardworking, their kids are the total opposite. That's the problem.

I suspect that it is now illegal for government workers to enquire about the legal status of potential applicants.

Latinos drop out of high school even more than blacks. What kind of "good jobs" are they going to get?

There's nothing charming about turning a unilngual country into a bilingual one. It's a needless burden.

Not if their chosen career is criminal or welfare queen.

Sorry, that article was written by someone else. I'm not even American. I do appreciate the time you put into your response though.

14. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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Auastralia also has a huge diversity of people, especially Asians. But America is probably number one on that list. I think you are right.

15. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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1,867
Renrue,
For someone who knows so much about mtDNA, its amazing how you fail to see the time of migration with the age of mtDNA. I have given you a link to my reference- and what you say should be thrown in the toilet. You can see that the Asian mtDNA is a lot earlier than the European, which means that the Eurasians(the ancestors of Asians and Europeans) migrated to Europe later after they migrated to Asia, about 27,000 years later. This is why Eurasians, who we call Middle Easterns, are genetically closer to Europeans. Further proof can be found in the genetic distance between Africans and Europeans, which is a value 16.6, as opposed to Africans and Asians, which has a genetic distance value of 20.6. Being that caucasians are closer to the ancestors of Asians, I drew my conclusion. You can look all this information up yourself.

http://www.mitomap.org/WorldMigrations.pdf

L1, L2, and L3 - Found in Sub-Saharan African lineages. 130,000-170,000 years ago

H, I, J, K, T, U, V, W and X - Found in nearly all lineages from Europe, North African and Western Asian Caucasians. 40,000 years ago

A, B, C, D, E, F, G and M - Found in the majority of the Asian, Oceania and Native American lineages 67,000 years ago

N, M - Found in Eurasians (Midde Easterns) 100,000 years ago.

http://www.dna-worldwide.com/mtDNA-Ancestral-Origin-Population-Assessment[/QUOTE]

Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
16. ### RenrueSomeoneRegistered Senior Member

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219
Chatha,

You know what? Not only do I think that you don't read my post in its entirety, I don't think you even read your own.
You contradict yourself after every post. It's becoming tiring trying to decipher what your main point is. Now after that sentence, it becomes even more hazier.
Now read those quotes carefully, I did not alter them in any way. If you think I took them out of context, go back to your original post. What the heck are you trying to say? Before you post, go over your own post by pressing "Preview Post" and read it over before hitting "Submit Reply."

Thank you.

[Renrue]

17. ### Chathabig brown was screwed upRegistered Senior Member

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1,867
Renrue,

Are you on animal tranquilizer? How many times am I going to post and repost my arguement. Okay, I made a mistake by saying Eurasians migrated to Europe "earlier" than to Asia. I thought I corrected my mistake. Its obvious you don't even have anything to say for yourself, so you resort to the lowest of arguments. But anyway the fact is that Eurasians migrated to Europe later after some of them migrated to Asia. You don't even NEED me for this assumtion, you should have known this simple relationship being that you are the expert at mtDNA migration (if you had been reading my post and studying the mtDNA map). The age of the mutations clearly claim that Europeans are closer to the ancestors of Asians. Further proof of this is the fact that Africans are genetically closer to Caucasians than they are to Asians. Have you seen Middle Easterns? Do they not look caucasian to you? You didn't even know that Middle Easterns were caucasians. You made a fool of yourself by saying Caucasians are a minority in the caucasiod race. Listen, I don't come to sciforums to argue out of my ass. I always have proof to back up my claim. Frankly, I am not even an avid fan of the out of Africa theory. Anthropological Biology is not even exactly my thing, I am a chemistry major, I study what I can see right in front of me. Its fun to argue, but its also better to give the other person benefit of doubt.

Thank you,

18. ### RenrueSomeoneRegistered Senior Member

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219
Chatha,

Huh? Where did I even say 3/4 of those things. For crying out loud. What are you reading? Chatha, I'm having a hard time holding back how incompetent your reading skills are.

1. You didn't correct yourself, you only mentioned new data that conflicted yourself. No where did I read: Oh, and about my earlier post, I was mistaken. It was just an entire new post. So yeah, no wonder I thought you were conflicting yourself. Because you were!

2. You're resorting to the lowest argument. You put words in my mouth and somewhere on the line you forgot, and fooled yourself into thinking I had typed your random babble.

3. Your posts don't even make sense most of the time. You switch between Eurasian, Caucasian, and European. You interchange them, separate them as different groups of people, hell, I don't even know what to make of it.
Non sequitar, Chatha. You just said a group from the Middle East traveled to Asia before Europe. Now you're going on how Europeans are a closer ancestor. That's like saying chimpanzees are our ancestor because they're genetically closer than gorillas.

You, sir, do not need a chemistry major. You need a reading course. This is not an attack on you, but a suggestion. I am tired of your random squabbling. Read my post, dammit. Read the thing and learn how to understand it. Your lack of literacy disturbs me greatly.

Also, please use separate paragraphs. I don't mind that people don't have great spelling or grammatical skills, but it is purely illogical for someone not read and write correctly and hope to have a debate on a forum.

Good day sir. This debate (between us, not the thread) is closed. I do not cede, but I refuse to decipher your cryptic messages every single time. You can claim victory if you want, but hopefully your antics reveal how hollow your victory is.

[Renrue]

19. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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24,690
Well for starters a lot of it is simply bonehead math. A huge number of them are using somebody else's SSN. That means when that citizen or legitimately matriculated resident retires, he will be collecting the contributions from the illegal, who will get doodley squat. Some of them may be in a low enough income bracket to dodge the income tax. (I think we call that bracket "poverty" and since they all have at least two jobs few of them are in it.) But they all shell out the same value-subtracting taxes that we all do everytime they spend any of their income. Directly, such as sales and excise taxes, or indirectly, such as the portion of my own tenants' rent that I collect but kindly pass off to the bureaucrats. In virtually bus-less L.A., most immigrants have to drive to work, so their gasoline taxes are subsidizing that handsome subway that the bankers and jewelers ride to work under Wilshire Boulevard.
We moved away in 1997. We had always planned on retiring in Humboldt County, where we vacationed every year to get away from those intolerable summers. My conscience finally forced me to walk away from my government job and I became a consultant. It dawned on us that since I was no longer driving to work but flying, we no longer needed to live in a major metro, but just some place with a decent airport. So we decided to make the move while we were still (just barely) young enough to withstand the rigors of moving. Ironically my wife is still taking care of our five acres of redwoods, ten dogs, and various other enterprises (with the help of some people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty), while I was forced to come to D.C. to find work when the bottom fell out of the consulting market on 9/11. I've gotten reacclimated to living in a vibrant urban environment, and my travels have taken me back to dear old Aztlán enough times that I often wonder whether we made a mistake in leaving. There are even people here that I can speak Spanish and Chinese with.
Boy you're a dog with a bone on that issue, aren't you. Is there anything you can't blame on the minorities? An entire generation of predominantly white American parents abdicated their roles and filled the schools with children that had no understanding of the basic rules of living in the world. The schools tried valiantly to start raising them, about four years too late, using every wacky technique they could find, but it was a hopeless cause.
The myriad white teachers I've known are mostly knee-jerk liberals who want to dedicate their lives to helping the minorities. One even joined a black church and sings in the choir.
So is the adult pregnancy rate. They're on par with their elders. If it weren't for our immigrants with their high fertility, the USA would be losing population and the Ponzi Scheme known as Social Security would collapse fifteen years sooner.
Not in many ways, but as I have discussed at great length in other threads, they are the one ethnic group who didn't self-select from their population the ones who wanted to leave and try their hand at life in America. Ditto for our aboriginal people, who never signed up to be "Americans" either. My contention that the schism between white and black Americans can be blamed on Lincoln has been elaborated many times. He connived white Americans into believing that the Civil War was all about better lives for black Americans, when it was nothing of the sort. As a result, there are still millions of white Americans who believe that their great-grandparents died for the sake of black people. A spectre like that hanging in the air--especially when it is utterly fraudulent--still casts a pallor over our racial relations. I have also stated my prediction that the new influx of immigrants from Africa into the black community, people who have no connection to that sad, hubris-inflated chapter in our history, may be just what we need to get out from under this crap.
Duh? You're a teacher and you don't know about what the Chinese and Japanese immigrants went through? My university roommate was born in a stall in Santa Anita Racetrack because his family was supposed to ship out to Manzanar that day. It wasn't until the Civil Rights Era in the 1960s that the people who used to be called "Japs" and "Chinks" were suddenly welcomed into the Melting Pot.
The only faction among today's immigrants who don't wholeheartedly want to assimilate are the Muslims. And it's politically incorrect to even speak of this. They won't let us ride in their taxis if we're carrying a bottle of liquor. They won't even pick up blind ladies on their way to a doctor's appointment because their guide dogs are "unclean." Next thing you know, they'll be sending their women into banks in those scary ninja costumes.
Not only is it not illegal, it is mandatory.
You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm the moderator of the Linguistics subforum. One of the best things people can do to improve their ability to manage their lives and "think outside the box" is to learn two languages when they're young.

20. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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25,318
Fraggle: While mostly enjoying your take on things, as one fogey to another I have to call you on the wage issue.

Ten bucks an hour to mow a lawn is perfectly reasonable. Low, even. And the illegal immigrants are definitely driving down wages for unskilled work, and shorting out the homeostatic wage equalization that keeps the upper class from taking over too easily.

It's not the American blue collar who needs a jolt of reality, but the American white. There is supposed to be some kind of constraint on how low simple, basic, body-in-motion proportional wages can be driven, if we are to avoid Marx and Dickens. The illegals wreck that constraint.

The ability of a blue collar worker to say: "Don't like my wages ? Do it yourself", and make that stick as a threat, is really important. After all, he has to be able to afford that doctor, sooner or later.

For one thing, it solves the problem of the parents having to work two or three jobs and neglect their kids. Neglect becomes a choice, and then becomes rare. It also helps greatly with the teenage pregnancies (which are low, btw, among native-born Americans). Because the problem has never been teenage pregnancy, really - which peaked in the US in the 1950s. The problem has been lack of teenage marriage. And that is closely linked to lack of teenage wages. And that is where the illegals come in.

The low wages leading to harried lives leading to fast food establishments that pay low wages leading to obesity leading to low wages spiral we can save for later

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21. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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Sure, back in L.A. In our semi-rural county, most breadwinners don't make much more than that. The cost of living is very low and $20K would be a fortune for a young, uneducated person. Two of them could share the rent on a nice duplex and have plenty of disposable income. Or they could get married and raise a family on their combined$40K without pinching pennies. One of the ladies who works in the local nursery schlepping trees for eight bucks an hour has a degree in botany. Whether you evaluate salaries coldly according to the prevailing wage in an area, or more compassionately based on the cost of living, what we pay our unskilled laborers is downright generous. We're not the people who are "shorting out the homeostatic wage equalization." The upper class took over our area long ago and maintains its power by paying off the municipal governments or simply buying their way into office themselves. We can't get a Home Depot so we're forced to pay exorbitant prices at the good-ol-boy hardware store.

I understand about reasonable wages, but they got out of control for a long while. It was disgusting to watch the kids who didn't bother paying attention in school and barely graduated get union jobs standing around pushing a button, "earning" as much as teachers. The American system is famous for its overshot pendulum swings, and now it's overcorrecting for those unrealistic salaries. Just as it's done with sex (in public), drugs (draconian penalties), religion (out of control), racial discrimination (completely reversed) and intellectualism (dead and buried).

The real culprit that's killing workers of every color collar is the dominance of the energy industry since their Clown Prince took over the White House. If we haven't already reached it, we will soon reach the point where half of the American workforce could do their jobs from home. Here in the "knowledge worker" economy of Washington it's probably closer to 90%. Yet we all have to ferry ourselves back and forth across the landscape every day to support the energy companies; 25% of our petroleum is consumed by commuting. That gives people two bad choices to balance. Live in West Virginia where housing is affordable and spend three or four hours a day on the highway, letting a nanny raise your children. Or live close in where a decaying townhouse sells for \$400K, work overtime to pay for it, and let a nanny raise your children. (My wife is home in northwestern California while I work in Washington in case you're as confused by that as I am.

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As for the broader issue of immigration--legal or illegal--and wages... All I can say is "welcome to the global economy." No country is going to be able to operate in a serene little vacuum any more. If we can't let the people come here and work for lower wages than our pampered illiterati think they deserve, we'll just ship the jobs themselves to Bangla Desh. And the jobs that can't be offshored? We'll automate them. We have a Roomba that does a surprisingly good job of keeping the floors clean, and a lawnmower-version of it is in prototype.

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