Alternate History

Discussion in 'History' started by Orleander, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Spike TV (go figure) is showing Alternate History. I don't know if they plan on making it a series, but the first one is if Germany/Nazis won WWII and ruled the US

    Anyone else watching it?
     
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  3. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    Science fiction author Harry Harrison has produced a wealth of Alternate History novels. This sounds like one of them.
     
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  5. Misty155 Registered Senior Member

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    Is that true? I think I will check it later.
     
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  7. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What I liked about it was they showed actual history along side what could have happened and how/why. Hitler made a HUGE error in not mass producing the German Messerschmitt 262
     
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    His main error with the 262 was declaring that it should be used as a bomber, rather than fighter. And the fact that it was poorly manufactured (engine life around 15 hours).
    If the RLM had decided earlier that jet aircraft were worthwhile (as opposed to halting work on jets in '38 or '39) they could have had the Heinkel He 280 in service.

    The 262 was too late to have had much of an effect on the war by the time they did get it into service.

    I also fail to see how Nazi Germany could have invaded, let alone ruled, the US. Oh wait, they'll trot out that map of New York bomb distribution and claim (again) that it shows a nuclear weapon. Wrong!
     
  9. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I couldn't see them invading the US either. But still, could Germany have won teh war with a better made/ better used 262?
     
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Only if they'd brought it into service much earlier.
    By the time 262 was in service the Luftwaffe (and all the other arms) were suffering from fuel shortages.
    Doesn't matter how good a fighter is if it can't leave the ground for lack of fuel.

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  11. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong Dyw, but at the time of the 262's deployment wasn't the US already underway with their own development of a jet fighter?

    I'll try and fish up more data.
     
  12. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    The best I can come up with would be the P-80 shooting star, which correct me if I'm mistaken, was superior to the ME262 in many ways including top speed.
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Yep.
    Most combatants had jet programmes underway more or less simultaneously, Britain, Germany, USA and Russia.
    One of the least-known was Lockheed's L-133 although that, fortunately, didn't get far. Any jet with its guns inside the intake is asking for trouble.

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  14. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    The A model of the P80 wasn't faster, but later versions were.
    And, a continuing failure of the USAF, was the main armament. Still only 50 cals, it really took Korea to shake them out that habit.
     
  15. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    I think it was because the .50 cals made more sense logistically and maintenance wise.

    For example, the problem with the Germans by the end of the war is that they had to teach tank mechanics how to service pz. III's, pz. IV's, Tigers, King Tigers, as well as Panthers.

    That means that either you teach your mechanics how to maintain 5 different tanks which takes a long ass time, or you have 5 teams of mechanics for each type of tank. Then you need to deal with replacement parts and the like.


    The .50 cal was standard for the period of time of WWII and Korea, it was used in everything from heavy troop emplacements, to ship based AA guns, to fighters, to tanks, to anything and everything.

    Dyw, I don't even know if such a statistic exists, but imagine on the day of V-J Day how many rounds of M2 Browning .50 caliber ammunition was left over.

    That figure must be astounding.

    To put it simply, I think that the US chose the .50 caliber is that it was the only thing on their new jet fighters that they were positive would actually work. We already know how poor the Bell fighter jet's performance was as well as the P-80.

    They probably weren't even sure the Saber wouldn't suffer catastrophic engine failure mid flight. So I think that by the time they were done finishing such a radical design they were sick and tired of having so many potential points of failure that they didn't want to have to deal with another. So they strapped on what is the single most successful machine gun of all time to it.

    That way you don't have to teach the pilots about new weapons, you don't need to brief engineers on the new guns. And most importantly, the factories had been producing .50 cal rounds by the ship load. There's a difference between knowing how to make a certain thing, and being an expert at it.

    At that point the US factories were experts at producing the .50 cal round.

    It may have been a mistake to up the size of the round when it came to aerial combat, but in many other ways it really was the right choice.

    Anyways, 1,600 rounds of .50 cal ammo spread across six guns and piloted by the single most experienced pilots in the world at the time is not the worst thing in the world.
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Man, the F-86 really was a gorgeous plane, it had no glaring flaws, it was a true bird of prey in every sense of the word.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Lol. Germany ruling America. Before Germany takes over America they have to take over Russia.. they would have 0 economic resources at this point, if Germany even made it to our shores they would be destroyed by our ground forces. They would have no chance unless Japan invaded from California, and Germany would have to invade through Mexico up to Texas, and push east. Its possible, but the only way it would happen is if all our allies are knocked out and were fighting two nations. Even then we can retreat to our friendly neighbors to the north. Im also positive Russia, England, and France would send us everything they could. Just getting to the shores of California would be a near impossible task, now a days it would be even more difficult.
     
  18. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Don't forget Germanys strategy the blitzkrieg.. crossing the Atlantic would make invading over night a very difficult task.. unless they could set up U-Boats off the coast with bombers already flying over NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, and Baltimore. Good luck lol.
     
  19. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Quite.

    Why?

    Um, if Germany had conquered Russia then wouldn't they have all of Russia's resources? Just a thought.

    Wow, you didn't bother actually reading the OP did you?
    If the Germans had won WWII how could France and the UK send support?

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  20. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    No it wasn't.
    Blitzkrieg was non-existent, it was a newspaper story.
     
  21. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Do you even know what the blitzkrieg is? So you think the Germany who was at war with Russia before America even got into WW2 would just quit fighting the Eastern Front and invade the U.S? No, they would have to bring Russia to its knees before they could even contemplate invading America. If they left Russia standing they would be watching our back from the Pacific giving us a viable place to retreat and launch a counter attack. Most countries besides America was depleted at the end of the war, America would have smashed a invading Nazi army in 5 days. Imagine General McArthur having a field day sinking invading U-boats. England can easily set a blockade from the East making escape imposible for the Germans, Russia would fight Japan in the Pacific, at the very least Russia would hold Japan off until we are ready to drop a few bombs on them.. I don't think Mexico is dumb enough to assist the Germans in combat, and Canada is on our side.

    Before Germany can even think about sending their navy they need to occupy Panama to restrict use of the cannal.
     
  22. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    The biggest reason invading North America was sheer folly back then, was everyone (even Canadians back then) owned at least one rifle.
     
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Better than you, obviously.

    Um, since it's an alternative history maybe the invasion of Russia didn't happen.

    Alternative history!

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