ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

that does make logical, literal and even intuitive sense. i was just wondering how someone could possibly have a vision of the future which would have to take into account many variables.

i was just considering the concept as if we could not have memories of the past or future but only now, does that mean the past did not exist (those events actually occurred to bring us to now) and the future may be the same, though we assume that our free will is what will shape it so it's unknown but our past was unknown if it wasn't recorded in our memory as well as the choices which marked them. the past does exist in the sense it did happen. based on the past (hindsight) we can extrapolate different outcomes based on different choices/actions just as we can predict the future (to some degree) based on what we have learned from the past and what choices produce what results (again, to a marginal degree notwithstanding being unaware of all variables)

as far as the future, the details are what is hard to fathom in this hypothesis considering quantum flux and seemingly random choices one can make that cannot be predicted but the future can be predicted based on the past to some degree and what knowledge that we do have such as we know our sun will die in approximately 5 billion years, what we do in the meantime as well if our descendents will be able to colonize neighboring planets or leave the solar system is the unknown currently.

it could just be that any accurate future glimpses are a byproduct of being aware of all those variables that are unaccounted that are not in the conscious awareness so that it literally can be construed as the future because it will happen, simply because that is what the conditions will propel the future into that event and there is no way to know how (what choices along the way) to change that outcome.

this subconscious awareness, even if more or possibly all knowing, can still be questioned as to a level of consciousness or if it is capable of motives such as does it provide information based on the greater good where it will even sacrifice yourself for a greater outcome or it could even be that your subconscious is just an encyclopedia of knowledge with no motive or it could be your worst enemy or your best friend, depending on how it was programmed and influenced.

i wonder this because i had several experiences that indicated this may be the case as one of my paranormal experiences was of a dark entity and i awoke at 3 am to see it and i knew it was my conscious awareness was urging me to wake up as that entity (a projection of their consciousness or subconscious intent) was trying to influence my subconscious while i was sleeping. i was told even by a physicist that while asleep where your conscious is not awake to defend yourself, that is the most vulnerable time for your subconscious to be manipulated and programmed even for or against you. i already sensed that was what was the intent.

this control factor was also evidenced by the live people around me. this i read as their subconscious directed at me while they were asleep as i had a reading done and repeatedly it said it was coming from my stepfather (the first one). disbelief at the time because i assumed these things were completely separate from actual people and that is not the truth in all cases. again, furthered the concept and understanding of what consciousness is and capable of, positive or negative. the second one which was the result of my physical mother's prayers was coming from her (dark entity in mocked prayer pose on it's knees in the same spot she had been praying). this i knew as i had physical evidence for myself to make the connection.

i know that this is going off tangent and a bit deeper than conventional known (surface) reality but i've become aware that there are more unseen effects and forces (which actual people exhibit and manipulate whether consciously aware) that affect others and the world at large.

but my glimpses of the future did indicate that either time should be questioned or that it can be fore-casted very accurately in some cases. though the usual view is that this is all crazy, i can assure you that i am lucid. actually, it may be the issue is that a part of my consciousness is more lucid than most in some other way that is very fine-tuned to detect what is less material.

this just was not a positive experience in my case but it may have some genetic influence as both my mother and my father were very intuitive people (doesn't necessarily mean good people as any ability can be used for good as well as negative). actually, they were all three this way. stepfather, father and mother. interesting, three again. it's just that i was one who was on the polar opposite in values with this ability so i was an 'enemy' to them and vice-versa. ability has nothing to do with one's moral values. but my father had a very good business 'sense' or intuition he used to become wealthy. it was like i was ganged-up on. on a spiritual and metaphysical level, they are not of my kind. this i 'know'.

my son also has this ability to some extent as he used to call himself, mr.ijustknow. lol

fortunately, he is one of the good people too.

no need to reply to my post. just something to consider if it was helpful or not.

 

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Thus somebody would be punished for a crime that doesn't exist (anymore). That is unethical in the extreme.

So your model is deterministic?

I'll interpret that as a "yes".

Do you see gluons? Do you see virtual particles? Do you see the wind?

Spacetime is also an artificial construct. The time dimension is an artificial construct.

So yes, you are redefining timelines to be something that's meaningless. OK, fine.

So if we see all black holes around us magically starting to shrink, we know the universe just started reversing. OK.

Please point me to even one instance where this is done in mainstream science, because I know of none.

No problem.

 

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To exist an entity has to be present, be in the "now", the expanding membrane. It is not that the crime never existed, it is just that are we are left only with the evidence. Ideally we would be punishing criminals before they accomplish their deed, then, no evidence and even serious criminals would be left to continue through time and enter into our "now".

timelines are not like the wind. or gluons, or virtual particles. each in its own category. The Sun has an imaginary timeline that spirals into the future inside the membrane, a compressed embodiment of the universe, a shorter one imagined would be the more spirally one of the Moon. Both intersected over Madras OR August 21. ~10 am. lines are useful mathematical tool, evn in calculations shopped into momentary points. There was a dark area in August but no real lines. I like wind though, the one over my wings, giving lift, do do aerobatics.

not meaningless, but if you consider them as permanent fixture of the expanding membrane, maintaining their point of origin in time, they would not be part of the membrane. I still can see, in my memory only, great, meaningful moments in time, film clips even, all strung back, but only because I am still here in the now.

particularly in a geometric model or math formula.

The dark holes are already crunched, extremely shrunk, the distance between them on the membrane will shrink, but they are the ones to meet the time of the end first. It proves that the big crunch will not be like the BB, because the entry will be so messy.

You asked to demonstrate the big bang, well at CERN they try to recreate the BB condition on a minuscule scale, one speeding proton collision at a time. It takes a lot of time to prepare these experiments. what does you make think, that it was different for the prototype?

re: timelines: contrary to the membrane in the model, which is a compression of a concrete entity, the universe and its content. In contrast, timelines are abstract mathematical tools to envision the movement of entities, since only the now exists, these lines are not in reality, but only projected as imaginary into the time dimension outside and inside the sphere. They are not force fields, that are real, and might be real parts of the model.

 

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Of course someone could have a vision of the future. I can envision future events, all a construct of my brain activity. No limit there, think of all the science fiction fascination. We are bound to the universe, the membrane in the model, not free floating entities, roaming infinite time, from past to future .imho. Our confinement to the time dimension is more profound than the spatial ones. No choice in the unrelenting movement through it.
What will happen in the membrane of the model though, as it moves into the future is open to many variables, some predictable, like the imaginary, abstract timelines of the Sun and Moon projected forward into future, outside the membrane, to intersect six years from now in April, (4/ 8/2024,) in the east of of North America. nice round numbers. 14 days earlier, later, Passover/Easter even.?

 

You are missing the point. If the past it emptied, then the crime stops existing. Punishing somebody for a non-existing crime is unethical.

You have missed the point: there are things that exist, but that we can't see by looking around us. Dark matter, dark energy, virtual particles...

But if only the contents of the membrane matters (the now), and timelines are not part of it, they become meaningless.

And so is your memory. You are "observing" nothing of the past; you are probing memory structures of the brain in the now. There is nothing in your statement that deals with timelines.

Yes, but I'm pointing out that there are abstract constructs that your model takes to be quite fundamental. This thus doesn't exclude timelines from being that too.

Seems you agree with me then.

False. They are most certainly not trying to recreate the BB condition. At best, conditions shortly after (quark-gluon plasma), after spacetime was already in place, and matter already existed.

I was talking about the time being attached to a space dimension, not constructing a prototype. Point me to even a single case where, in mainstream science, space is combined with time to form spacetime.

Doesn't that mean that everything in the past in your model is "not in reality", and thus "doesn't exist"? Doesn't this mean that the past is merely a mental construct, and not real?

 

Rethink that please, in the light of the model. While past time is empty, only the now membrane exist, all the information, one way or another is present in the membrane. It might take the form of records (hopefully not lost), artifacts carried forward. But, gratefully the crime does not exist anymore. Its point in time would be in the empty interior cavity of the sphere., because the membrane has expanded away from it. Consequences of the event will percolate into the future though, inside the membrane, where the records are kept. justice delayed not instantaneous.

Using the word "see", meant to show that timelines are abstract, not like the indirectly observed entities dark energy. dark matter or virtual particles, who after all could be even part of the infinitely old nothingsic.

As I pointed out in the eclipse examples, even if they are purely abstract concepts, seemingly hairlike projecting out into the empty past or future of the model. meaningful math can be done with them.

No, I am not observing "nothing" when my brain gets into long time memory lookback mode. I am recreating an image of what really happened, the only thing that I have in the now, thinking about the disappeared past (time). ---Now, where did I put my keys? they must be somewhere in the membrane!

You know the fine details, I thought they converted the kinetic energy, mass of the speeding protons into pure energy, out of which the ptoto particles emerged, like in the BB condition. I assume that the BB also is an event, although starting to become serious at a point in time, took some doing, had a duration, was present in time, the membrane in its nascent condition. Details to be filled in by experts.

No, the past is not only a mental construct of observers, To quote Einstein from the stockholm discussions: " do you mean to say the moon does not exist

Try the big bang. I am not arguing for or against mainstream thinking. the model is a stand alone concept. but

As an illustration, , think of the now, with zero dimensions, as a really sharp edge of 3-1D space dragging through time. That would be a thorough mixing at the molecular level, so: That mix is happening as we speak, zero thickness membrane moving through time, a dimension of infinite reach. What I am trying to convey here, is the possibility that in these zero time, zero space "now" conditions, you actually have spacetime created as we speak, while the membrane moves on its way through the time dimension. Instant spacetime, unlike the BBwhere space time appeared for good, 13.8 billion years and counting.

No, there are real entities from the past that are now circulating in the membrane, they are not what they used to be, but merely fossils. Even light is a fossil, carrying the shape of where it came from or reflected off. That information in the membrane is real, not just a mental construct of the observer, who can disappear. To quote Einstein from the Stockholm discussions: " do you mean to say the moon is only there when I observe him ?"( he was speaking german, not french =La lune).
There is no parade of artifacts back to the Big Bang. info only.--- also see post 344 on that subject please.

 

In that case, why does the emptying of the past have any meaning? What difference does it make?​

That's the thing: there are scientists saying that virtual particles don't actually exist either, that they are just a mathematical/conceptual trick to make quantum theories work properly. And at the other side, there are scientists that claim that timelines are real things (worldlines) that exist. You can't simply dismiss one without dismissing the other.

Can there? Is there really any math that can be done with them that can't be done with the information already present in the membrane? That's why I asked you about whether the past is still filled with content, and whether your model was deterministic. Without those two, timelines are most definitely a meaningless concept unless they are in some sense real.

So you agree with me that when you said: "I still can see, in my memory only, great, meaningful moments in time", you meant that you can imagine a recreation, and not remember the actual events.

That only happened after the BB, not during. We don't know what happened during, because we can't describe it (with our current mainstream theories). But one thing is for sure: the LHC cannot reach energies even close to those that existed when spacetime came into existence.

Perhaps it was, but current theories cannot confirm nor deny it. We simply don't know.

If the now has zero dimensions, how can it be a really sharp edge of 3-1D space? An edge has length, which is (at least) 1 dimension.

That is not a case of this mixing happening in mainstream science. Please provide such a case, or acknowledge that you were wrong.

But these entities don't come from the past: the past is emptied, and thus those entities do not longer exist in the past. If emptying the past has any meaning, it must also mean that talking about entities from this emptied past is talking about entities that don't exist anymore.

 

because the universe is truly moving on through time. There is no parade of particles back to the big bang. Big difference either you have it or you don't

I am dismissing worldline as real things only because they do not fit into the membrane's "now." I do not dismiss them as abstract mathematical tools. To claim that objects carry, unreel real world/time/lines with them is unreal.

Timelines are not part of the expanding sphere model, somebody interjected them in one of the objections. Of course all the info about the uni verse is in the membrane. using it to calculate future points in time, or reconstruct past events, would take the coordinates outside the membrane. April 8 2024 is still outside of the membrane.

Confusing . we remember past events, hopefully they actually happened (eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable). The actual event happened when the membrane was smaller, nothing there now, has moved on. lets move on.

whichever way you want to rotate it, or view in section,a zero thickness entity moving through and embedded in an infinite dimension will be profoundly penetrating it.
Instant 4D, frozen in the strobe lights.

Assuredly, mixing at the molecular level takes place? Drain the oil out of your engine, run it, and try to free the aluminum to iron bonds resulting. I used this rolling wheel, penetrating knife analogy to illustrate how 3 space dimensions and time become temporarily one spacetime at the instant of passage of the membrane through time. It is an illustration only, similarly to hooking a world/time/line to an object. Where space and time meet, you space time. space needs time to exist in. touche' .

While the time through which the membrane has moved, is empty again, the membrane has not emptied itself of its content, only modified it as it passes through time into the future. That modified content is in the "now" of the current temporary membrane size. For example, We have the Colorado river now. but in the past it ran the other way, it was certainly different water. Of all that we have only currently available evidence that we can examine now. . The old river is gone. Even if I flew into the Canion again, it would not be the same. Great!
Nothing in the past exist anymore, anything we ave now has left the past with us and is in the now. Your grandmother's engagement ring does not exist in the past anymore. If you are lucky enough to have it, it is because it moved along with you into its future, safely ensconced in the membrane.

 

Well, there is always next time they crank up the counter rotating proton beams. At least they found the Higgs Boson. Ther must have been an cascading event at the origin, and putting the very point in time would be right at the beginning,
illustration of such a cascading event resulting in a ball getting rolling is shown on page 15, post290. That is the point.

 

Yes we have come a long way in a month, to agree on this item, that black hole funnels that were stuck on the radius will keep moving toward the original BB position, and become part of the big crunch in a shrinking sphere membrane model. thank you and we agreed on others too.
I all started on Dec. 8. post 17, when I realized that the solution might lie in the Expanding Sphere membrane model, rather than the bell. because at least in the sphere, the message from the past comes from all directions. Time must lie ahead in all directions, the past must be back in all directions, showing us what it was like.

 

Reminds me of my speculation of a toroid universe,

 

well, let's hear it. It sounds like a beautiful concept. not the simplest though. Visually is it like a smoke ring? or a thermal rising, the occasion of some of my profound experiences? I think we would be interested to hear about it, , without hijacking the thread, where the comparisons are relevant How time is perceived in it, as directional or a all pervasive presence, infinite. Is the toroid moving through time, or internally measuring distance, duration rotation?

 

Expanding: also addressing, Write4U, NotEinstein, Seattle, thank you for bearing with us in this month long saga, developing totally unexpectedly for me, while I am healing from an operation. good timing to talk about time.
I am looking at my model, and it occurs to me, that the Expanding Sphere Membrane is moving out in all directions in all its 2+1 dimensions. Since time is pictured as all pervasive, infinite in all directions, it should be called timespace tm. a simple word for the fact that time is kind of everytime[where], all the time.
PS. nothing new here, even the bell of post #3 require a 3D time,timespace, even if the movement is unidirectional, but the view back in time is not all encompassing like the E Sphere M model.

 

Working on world/timelines: In the model, the time for the past eclipse would be in the inner, smaller, now gone, August 21 2017 sphere. 5 month ago in measured time,
The time for the coming eclipse would be in the outer, future time sphere defining April 8 2024, 5 years out into the future.
We could connect these two spheres eclipsewise in a straight line, if we picked Carbondale IL USA as a location on the membrane. (unless the universe is rotating and timspace is not. )*** The path of the two eclipses intersect there. That timespaceline would be 5 years, 5 month long. Calculated from data inside the membrane.
A case to be made for time outside the universe,- infinitely, everywhere. timespace.
*** even if the universe is not rotating, intercepting the Moon's shadow is tricky, there was a topic on this site (not alternate), how the moon eclipses the sun all the time, the shadow tracing a spiral path into the solar system.

 

See my post # 72

 

Please provide evidence that this "parade of particles" doesn't exist, because if I use the mainstream scientific view and follow one of the cosmic background neutrino's back in time, I do get a worldline reaching (almost) all the way back to the Big Bang.

That is your opinion, for which you have provided no evidence.

So your model is a deterministic one. Good to know.

I meant to point out that there is nothing (directly) related to the past in remembering in your model: all the past is going; remembering or "seeing in memory" is purely an act performed with objects that are present in only the now.

So it does not have zero dimensions, but three. OK.

This is completely unrelated to the mixing of time and space dimensions, which is what we were talking about.

You said there are many cases of this happening in mainstream science; I asked you to provide even one. You still haven't.

Yes, and it is no longer present in the past. The entities no longer exist in the past. The past is empty. For example: I have a rock in my hand. I want to know where that rock was one minute ago. This is impossible, since the entity (this rock) no longer exists one minute ago. The entity has no past (has no existence in the past).

False. In your model, it didn't exist in the past. The past is emptied; it no longer contains the Colorado river.

Exactly, so saying that the Colorado river existed in the past is wrong. It no longer does.

Exactly, including the Colorado river.

Exactly, so talking about the past of the engagement ring is nonsense (in your model); because its past doesn't exist.

Nope. The LHC is simply unable to reach such energies, even with upgrades. If I remember correctly, it's something like ten orders of magnitude off; more than a factor one billion too low to reach GUT energy scales.

I don't deny that possibility, but we currently simply do not know what "set off" the Big Bang and what happened in the moments right after.

You are simply re-inventing world lines (or what we called time lines earlier).

 

How would an observer looking along the surface of any toroid reconcile the extreme variation of matter present in various directions, compared with the perceived uniformity of the picture we have in reality and the Expanding Sphere Membrane model? Is the toroid model imbedded in infinite time? thank you.

Here are some musing on time in the 3 models discussed on this thread.
The universe, as the models, started at a point in time and are spreading out from that point; either , --1) as a one way moving disk: Bell, -- 2) one way but curving: doughnut, -- or 3) radially in all directions: emptying Sphere.
All 3 models seem to imply the pre-existence of time as a dimension, reaching every which way , (all models define volume), [even if the membrane possibly has zero thickness].
The universe as seen in the models is already part way into time in all directions, and there is no reason to think that there is not future time available for continued expansion. so
Time has to be pictured as extending in 3 superimposed dimensions. in other words
timespace.
We know of spacetime since the turn of last century, but it existed long before that, since the BB.
timespace existed even longer.

refutations please.

 

First, you are neglecting the enormous distances involved. To anyone at any point the 2d plane is flat in appearance. We do refer to the "observable universe" in space, as we use "event horizon" in BH.
Secondly. At first glance it seems to be not in conflict with supermassive Black Holes, where one may find "extreme variation of matter present in various direction". But still a chronology of events.
Thirdly. It's a recycling of existing matter, answering to the Law of Conservation.
Fourth. It's a bounded but infinite construct.

https://futurism.com/what-lies-beyond-the-edge-of-the-observable-universe/

 

Same distances in all models, different paths. Comparing the the Expanding Sphere Membrane model that evolved here by you all's prompting, the look back picture is into the same universe, and while looking along the flatlander curved plane of he ESM, you would expect a uniform picture, Background radiation included, In the Toroid model, I suspect, you would see the most extreme matter energy /concentration imaginable as you pan your device.
Since we see in our universe, is what we expect from looking from/ in a sphere, I assume that we are right, we are living in such a universe modeled, having equal radii to the beginning. I can not imagine any place on a toroid having a look back appearance, even only in a " horizon" section of it , looking toward the beginning [(or re-emerging)] point, as we do in our 'Expanding Sphere Membrane' view.
Not that I do not like the linked pictures, the recycling, the manifold possibilities, the ingenuity to devise it, but
The simplest of the three developments we have seen on this thread , truly threadbare, imho, is
a sphere emerging in timespace.
Shaved to the bare minimum by Occam.

 

Nebel asked:AlMA sees old galaxies merge, in other words: "How can we see an old message, but not the newer one? the finished merger?

The question and answer is clear to me now with your help all.
The Universe is expanding out of the BB, The very old galaxies started mergen, as they have a tendency to do that early, when the universe was smaller. The message about it left that long ago, travelling In the "membrane" of this thread. and was captured by ALMA in radio (stretched waves).

The same galaxies merged, and where present in the older universe , pictured by a bigger "membrane" closer to our present size one. The message of the same matter send from closer to us in time, has already bypassed. The info about the merger just had arrived now, long range delivery so to speak. of a specific event. news, but not new news.
Explained by Expanding Sphere Membrane.