Al Qaeda in retreat?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by countezero, May 30, 2008.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    The suicide bombs ahve almost always, in my local paper's reports that I follow, included some Iraqi government stuff - police, military recruitment, the occasional jobsite where the US and the Iraqi central guv hires, etc.

    The unrelated market or mosque suicide bombings have been a minority, in my own informal survey's. Do you have a link of summary data ?

    The death squad terrorism and neighborhood cleanisngs have been more as you describe - but the US seems to be involved with them too. Some of that stuff is on our side. John Negroponte was shipped to Iraq for a while just about the time they got rolling, that kind of hint.

    The car bombs seem a varied lot, including what appears to be organized crime. I also remember the British car bombers that got caught - let's say we have reason for suspicion.

    Some kind of divide and rule strategy,corrupted by the extraordinary opportunities for crime with all that stuff and cash and no functioning police, is not a farfetched, bizarre possibility.
     
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  3. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Madanthonywayne:

    Yes. A profound and utter sickness of will. It is deadly decadence that must be reoslved before the midpoint of this century.

    Precisely. It was an absurdity.

    Exactly. It is a war of spirit. Only an equally healthy spirit can combat a foe that is certain as they. We must too learn to throw aside our nihilistic self doubt. Peal away the rot.

    We must view ourselves, our civilization, and our way of life as worth saving. The sustained moral critique against Western civilization is destroying it at its core by people accepting the hogwash. They are taking our virtue and using it against us as a sword.
     
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  5. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Iceaura:

    Buffalo Roam provided his list earlier in the thread. I believe iti s on page 7 or 8. He provided the link with it.

    So you are saying we are the ones who instigated their own tactics? Yet...this has pretty much gone on from the start. I do not think they need our assistance to start with it.

    We have no vested interest in helping the mayhem. If anything, it is entirely destructive of our war effort.
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    I ran through that list when he first posted it, noticed that (among other irrelevancies to the argument he was in at the time) it was counting police recruits and the like as innocent civilians, the vicinity of police stations and checkpoints and bus stations full of Iraqi military trainees as civilian targets, and filed it under "typical Buffalo."

    It didn't counter Sam's argument at all, for example.
    Who's "we", and what part of the mayhem was intentionally destructive to "our" effort ?

    The Shia death squads operating against the Sunnis Baathist resistance and the trade union organizers and communists, the terrorists threatening the people who wanted democracy before they were ready for it according to US authorities, and similar forces, were not necessarily against "our" interests.

    "We" may have regretted hwo things turned out, but that does not mean "we" had no hand in arranging matters. "We" have fucked up before.

    And of course it was the US invasion that brought AQ in, with consequences everywhere visible in Iraq.
    You don't bring John Negroponte in unless you are planning on running some death squads.
     
  8. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Iceaura:

    Oh, but it most certainly did. It showed that the civilians being slaughtered were being slaughtered by Iraqis and it also showed that the majority were not Americans or Iraqi policemen.

    Coalition/America.

    Making a mess out of the entire reconstruction process and reestablishment of law is not against our aims?

    LOL. Yes...certainly.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    So? Your claim was that little of the suicide bombing was associated with the US.

    Dream on. You think your goals and Halliburton's were the same ? Bremer's ? The neo-cons in the Office of Special Plans ? W&Co's in general ?
    The list of contributors to that is pretty long, and includes KBR.

    And no, given our aims there had to be enough disorder to prevent an uprising of democracy or popular rule or any alliance capable of refusing to grant the US certain privileges, get rid of the movement toward unions, destroy the records of Saddam's dealings with the US, cover for the establishment of military bases and the desired economic organization, etc.
     
  10. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Iceaura:

    A point proven by the fact that very few of those suicide attacks overall are associated with the Americans.

    Halliburton is not part of the US government. Peace and stability are part and parcel of all the profit arguments, yet none of that has been attained.

    Secretary of Defense Robert Gates just today announced no desire for any permanent base in Iraq. Democracy has been chugging along (the purple thumbs), the US has gotten no privileges of worth, there has been no movement against unions, and the Saddam dealings with the US are of public knowledge, et cetera.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You should know by now that your government depends on the fact that Americans rarely follow the media outside their country:
    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/11/iran-war-iraq-sofa/

    Geez, correction:

    Its the effing headline in WaPo:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...AR2008061003415.html?nav=rss_email/components
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    I love it when you reference liberal blog sites as substantiation, and authentication, yes real validation.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    see edit

    :yawn:
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    I have to question the spin of the Story, as placed by SAM and expounded by the Washington Post from this little quote for the article on the last page, the one most people don't read.

     
  15. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    16,931

    :yawn:
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Wow, so you ignore the PUBLIC DEBATE on the almost 60 military bases and quote one politician.

    Thats a Republican mind for you- so open, the brains have fallen out.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    Technically no, practically yes.

    Technically, long-term doesn't mean permanent. I guess guantanimo is also just a long-term thing.

    O'really?

    Iraqi oil union under attack

    The Iraqi Oil Minister, Hussein Al-Shahirstani, has ordered the transfer
    of eight Oil Union activists. They used to work at the oil refineries in
    the south. This act reflects the minister's anti-union policy, and lack
    of respect for unions and union activists in the oil sector. Those
    activists, through their hard work, are well known for fighting
    corruption and corrupt-ministry gangs in the oil sector.

    They have been transferred to Baghdad Al-Dorah neighborhood (known for
    worsening security situation, and high level of sectarian killings). In
    the context of Iraqi security situation, such a transfer is rightfully
    regarded as human rights crime.​
     
  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Really, I am aware of the spin, of the public debate, but for all the spin, how do you explain the statement of Mohammed Hamoud:

    I know you love to spin everything as the U.S. being the biggest bastard in the world, but as I have said before it is the small details in which the story is really told, and there is this one small detail of Mohammed Hamoud, and his view:

    Dosen't hold with your and the news media's spin:

     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Politicians never lie, only the public lies -Buffalo Roam

    There is also a debate on this going on in your Senate, if you care to keep up with what is happening in your own country. I know how you hate people doing other people's research, so I'll let you look it up yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  20. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    16,931
    Teach your grand mother to suck eggs.
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    That comes out of one side of your mouth, and out of the other side comes assertions that the US is making great progress and forging ever stronger alliances with the emerging Iraqi government and people.

    The Iraqis targeted by most of the suicide bombings reported in my normal sources for the past five or six years, and in Buffalo's lists if you examine them, are what must be those Iraqis, if there are any. Police recruits, military recruits, local "neighborhood defense" forces, tribal leaders cooperating with the US or seeming to, etc.

    Plus, of course, much killing of bystanders and innocent passersby. All sides in this vicious little imperial occupation kill mainly the innocent, except perhaps the death squads in their shadow war against each other.

    To claim that recruiting centers for US trained and US equipped and US supervised forces are not associated with the US is daft.
     
  22. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Iceaura:

    As evidenced by the victims in the list, this is simply not true. The majority have been civilians not at all associated. Not Iraqi policemen. Not Iraqi government officials. Not AMerican troops. Not American nationals. A crowded market place is not a police station; a school is not a government office.

    The US Has not waged any war against civilians of this sort. If you have 800 references to prove your point, please list it.

    As noted again, this is simply false.
     
  23. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Spidergoat:

    Unsubstantiated.

    The implication is the US does not intend to make Iraq a colony.

    Interesting. I stand corrected. There has been at least one instance where the Oil Union has been cracked down by an Iraqi minister. Not Iraqi. not American. But nonetheless, I'll give you one instance in their government.
     

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