Al Franken is Gone, Sexual Harassment Allegations are Harming Democrats

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    You will never be able to outlaw "social punishment", ElectricFetus. People will always have opinions, and they will always express them, one way or another, unless you want something like a 1984-style police state, complete with thought police.

    As things stand, the law strikes some kind of balance between free speech and other types of speech, such as hate speech and defamatory speech.
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Outlaw? Well certainly we will see the law suits come out from this type of behavior, but that is civil court, not federal court.

    Slippery slope. yes once again people can have their opinions, harassing someone else because of that opinion though is wrong. Slander is slander. I'm entitled to my opinion the Bells murders and eats children, that fine, but if a start calling her friends and family and demanding they "do something about it" and how dare they be acquaintances with a murdering cannibal, then that would be wrong. Do you see there is no mutual exclusion: one is free to think as they want, not thought police, no 1984, but one can't go outside the law and harass other on that thought. A better example then 1984 would be "The Lottery" by shirley jackson.

    yes, exactly.
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    You seem to have this particular habit of declaring women as not being adults (such as your repeated arguments that if she is an adult, she act a certain way to fulfill your expectations of her, now this..

    What's up with your incessant need to view women as children? Are you that insecure? Do women scare you so much that the only way you can make yourself seem like the bigger man is by deeming them to be children, or not adults?

    What basis do you have to make such an accusation?

    See, you seem to be mistaking "opinion" with pure slander. In other words, you are pulling this out of your fetid rectum with no basis in reality whatsoever.

    What lynch mob was rallied in the case of Franken?

    Yes EF.

    Franken, a rich and famous white man in a powerful and privileged position who used said position to grope and sexually harass and assault women and was asked to resign.... Is just like a poor black man who is dragged out of his home or from the street, beaten and strung up in a tree or light pole and murdered to set an example and terrify other black people, by a bunch of white men in positions of power and privilege, for looking at a white woman the wrong way....

    Do you even bother to stop and think about how absolutely moronic and insulting your comparisons are?

    All this talk of lynching, these comparisons. Do you have any idea of just how dumb you appear in making these comparisons?

    What a shame Franken forgot that when he went out of his way to sexually harass and assault numerous women.

    People do have a right to their opinions based on what has become public knowledge and they have the right to express the opinion that he should resign. Franken was free to act as he so chose to act and he opted to resign. No, he was not lynched and comparing it to that, and as you and the other troll who keeps calling it a "witch hunt", is not even a valid comparison.

    No one was harassing him, and he wasn't punished. He opted to resign when it became known that he did it to 8 women.

    You keep blowing it up to be something it was not and for what? Perhaps you like looking like a historically illiterate moron?

    Well you could try. But you would find yourself sued. And here's why..

    It is an invention, designed solely to slander. Now, unless you are trying to argue that all 8 women somehow or other lied and all the corroborating witnesses who where there, also lied (pretty big conspiracy) and that the photo of him grabbing at her breast is fake, which given he admitted to taking it, it would be a tad difficult to now claim it is all false, there is more than enough evidence to suggest he did do it.

    You, on the other hand, have admitted to making it up, apparently to prove some kind of point. Now, you could try to "harass me about it all the time", but you would end up with a very legal letter and a slew of documents detailing just how you went about inventing this lie, and then attempting to spread it far and wide for the sake of your politics and how your specific intent was to defame me. I mean, you have been quite specific and open about how you came up with the ridiculous slander to begin with.. To wit, by the time I would be finished with you, you'd barely have a few coins left with which to buy a cup of coffee. And here's the thing about slander.. It isn't slander if it is true. You specifically invented it and said how you invented it, then discussed your motive with the other troll who was encouraging you, to try to prove a political point..

    Now, you should ask yourself why Franken did not sue if it was all a lie?

    So, perhaps you can explain how Franken was harassed or had his family harassed?

    Or is this you just making more and more things up again?
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    No your incessant need to view women as children, I'm pointing out that you think women can't handle going to the police and pressing charges like adult human beings. You instead project your infantilizing of women as a way to slander and disparage me and to avoid my argument that social harassing is not a solution. If you want to improve the judicial system, go right ahead, but an alternate system of social harassing without due process is immoral and antithetical to our civilization.

    My own basis that how. I have stipulated the difference between opinion and slander, you on the other hand have no problem using opinion as slanders, so why can't I do the same to you?

    Twitters #metoo, 20 other senators, the DNC, dozens of dozens of click bait articles slandering him with accusations that could very well have been pulled out of his accusers fetid rectum with no basis in reality whatsoever.

    Oh boy he was rich and famous and white and male and straight, ergo no rights for him? Aside for wanting the rich to pay higher taxes I don't want them striped of rights that everyone deserves. There is no proof he used said position to grope and sexually harass and assault women, anymore then there is proof you eat children. And accusation of criminal offense needs to be decided in a court of law, at the very least by lawsuit, not by random public opinion during a sex hysteria. The most frightening reason why what your asking for is wrong is because Trump has been accused of all the same and more, but your social harassing can't touch him because unlike franken, Trump has followers as vile, self-rightous and low-some as you to counter-brigade.

    You see Franken, unlike Trump, did a lot to fight for progressive issues, but now people like you enable anti-progressives who are immune to twitter lynch mobs by attacking progressives on mere accusations and forcing them to resign by public pressure. Do you think Trump gives in to public pressure?

    The principle is the same: guilt and justice decided by mobs. Just as the Southern whites believe themselves righteous to strip a poor black man of liberty and life, you social justice warriors and feminist like your self believe it is righteous to strip rich white men of liberty (and life). What is and is not righteous should not be decided at the whim of a mob.

    If your insulted, good, you should be, Franken deserves his rights just as much as a poor black man. Oh right Franken is a jew, nevermind.

    slander, insult, slander, no counter argument, your M.O.

    Jee those children should have known better then crossing you? How you cook them? with some with some fava beans and a nice chianti?

    Well then he has a right to sue them for slander, don't you think?

    Oh so because it was not as bad as a physical lynching, it is ok?

    Thousands of people disparaging his character, demanding his resignation and punishment, constantly calling and messaging him, his family, his acquaintances, you think that is ok? Imagine if thousands of people were doing the same to you for eating children, despite the fact half your accusers are completely anonymous, and the other half there is no proof the children ever existed or where killed by you.

    Lets look at history for a moment, beside the witch hunts, the McCarthyism red scare, the satanic panic, now this, right at this historical moment we have the most ignorant, moronic psychopathic president EVER, and you and your ilk's outlet for the horror of that is to attack progressives.

    Like the accusation against Franken.

    Yes I am, and I have explained the mechanism of it. The first, a conservative radio show host, disparage franken with his flak jacket grop joke and reinterpretation of a comedy skit rehearsal years ago, if she at the time felt sexually harassed she should have gone then and there to the police. Instead she comes out with these accusations during the #Metoo sex hysteria to get attention and possible in collaborations with Roger Stone to get a prominent liberal senator slandered to divert attention from moore's pederast accusations. Once thrown into the #Metoo hysteria other women come forward for attention with even less credible accusations and no evidence what so ever. These "corroborating witnesses" by the way, please present them. Finally news sites present completely anonymous women who may or may not even exist, simple to get clicks and sell ads.

    People like you on the other hand don't believe women can or should go to the police, you believe it to harsh on women (gee I wonder how bad it is on men?) worse you demand women's claims be accepted as truth, because women are apparently not people to you, capable of exaggerating, lying, spitefulness, etc, like people do.

    Yeah garbing at breast though a bullet proof vest, sort of hard, harder still with his hand floating in air not even touch her. Yeah it is a joke, back in a time when such jokes were consider crass, not proof that he is a monster.

    Not before ruining your life first, more so I see no reason why franken can't do the same.

    And you have no proof it is true in franken's case, and no proof it is not true in my case. If I honestly believe you each children, then is it not true? Oh that right I have a penis ergo I don't need to be "believed" do you understand the concept of equality, if I can't be believed then why anyone else?

    And somehow you miss how this is not equal to franken.

    Who says he can't? I would say though that aside for Leeann Tweeden, the rest would be harder to target because of the vapidness of their accusations and complete anonymity in half of those cases

    Already did, above.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You see where your slipshod vocabulary takes you - where fewer and fewer people will follow, and the physical realities offer less and less support.

    Nobody so far has claimed that Senator Franken "used said position" to do any of his groping. There are no accounts of him persisting in his groping over any length of time, or repeatedly despite resistance, which is most people's intuitive understanding of "harassment". He appears to have taken rejection for an answer immediately in all cases, made no threats, and done little or no material injury to anyone, which is not what most people regard as sexual assault. These are details, of course, but they illustrate - as time goes by, innuendo, slander, and unreasonable assertions most damage the "side" that most depends on reason and good faith.

    Most people are going to hesitate before handing power to a bunch of folks who apparently can't make these kinds of distinctions, and who advocate using the State to establish and enforce every passing implication of their incoherent verbiage regardless of cost. Nobody trusts the unreasonable - including the self-destructive. The political campaign devolves into a purely propaganda battle, a slogan and media conflict. And then power and money wins.

    The Minnesota DFL has nine months to dig itself out of this hole, and avoid that outcome.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
    ElectricFetus and Kittamaru like this.
  9. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    Might there be a misguided standard as to what constitutes acceptable conduct to hold public office?

    US congressman misled police after his assault of Guardian reporter Ben Jacobs in May, falsely stating that Jacobs had initiated physical contact and that the “liberal media … is trying to make a story”, according to the police incident report.

    The records, made public on Friday, provide new details on the violent altercation that occurred on the eve of a special election to fill Montana’s sole seat in the US House of Representatives. Jacobs had approached the then candidate at his Bozeman campaign headquarters to ask a question about the Republican healthcare bill when Gianforte threw him to the ground and punched him.

    The Republican was nevertheless elected the next day.

    Contrast the documented behavior of Greg Gianforte with the alleged behavior of Al Franken.

    Franken on Thursday denied most of the allegations, which started to surface last month. Here are the eight accusations he faces:

    Leeann Tweeden, a radio news anchor, says Franken groped and forcibly kissed her during a USO tour in 2006, before the former comedian was a senator. She says Franken "aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth" when the pair rehearsed a skit that featured a kiss. A photo also surfaced showing Franken looking at a camera while pretending to grab Tweeden's breasts as she was sleeping while clothed. The senator apologized for the photo but said he remembered the skit incident differently.
    Lindsay Menz says Franken grabbed her buttocks when the pair posed for a photo at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010. Franken later said he did not remember taking the picture but "felt badly" that Menz felt disrespected.
    Two other unidentified women told HuffPost that Franken grabbed their buttocks at separate events in 2007 and 2008. One of the women says Franken suggested that he and she should go to the bathroom together. Franken said he did not remember the events and denied asking anyone to visit the bathroom with him.
    Stephanie Kemplin, an Army veteran, says Franken put his hand on her breast during a USO tour in 2003. In a statement following that accusation, Franken's office said he has not "intentionally engage in" the "kind of conduct" described.
    A woman described as a "former elected official in New England" told the Jezebel website that Franken tried to give her a "wet, open-mouthed kiss" during an event in 2006. The senator has not appeared to respond specifically to the allegation.
    An unnamed former Democratic congressional aide told Politico that the senator tried to forcibly kiss her after he taped a radio show in 2006. She says she avoided the kiss, then heard Franken say "it's my right as an entertainer." Franken called the allegation "categorically not true."
    Tina Dupuy writes in The Atlantic that Franken put his hand around her waist while the pair posed for a photo and squeezed "at least twice" during an event in 2009. The senator has not specifically responded to that allegation.

    So Gianforte can violently assault a man to the point of physical injury, get elected to office the next day, and not face an ethics investigation. But Franken on the other hand exhibits what would essentially amount to rude behavior by comparison towards his female accusers, is pressured to resign his position or face the certainty of an ethics investigation.
  10. Bells Staff Member

    You know, enough evidence was provided to you to explain why rape and sexual assault victims are reluctant to report it to the police and for you to still keep pushing this ridiculous line of argument shows that you are either a troll or a deeply mentally disturbed fellow who really hates women so much that you would still hold that type of expectation despite all the evidence you were provided with to show just how the police do treat victims.. Put simply, they call it "second rape" for a reason.
    Well, unless you are going to redefine the meaning of common words to match what you are stupidly attempting to do here? An opinion about something actually happening vs inventing a story, which is exactly what you did, and trying to attach your opinion to a story you invented about someone.. For example, your "opinion" is essentially that you think I murder babies because that is the slanderous lie you invented and detailed how you invented it. The fact that you are doing it in this thread, with the addition of your declaring women are children, general misogyny, defending sexual assault and sexual harassment.. Well, that says it all, doesn't it?
    Eight women is no basis whatsoever? Interesting. And you should look up the meaning of "lynch mob" because using such terms makes you look like a man in the midst of hysterics.

    And we are talking about a rich and powerful white man with the ability to spread his voice, who has a history of horrendous misogyny (all under the guise of comedy), who groped 8 women that we know of while in the position of Senator for 7 of them, while attending events as a Senator, events he would more than likely not have been invited to attend in that capacity and placed in such a prominent position were it not his status as a Senator and a powerful one.. And if you think that Trump's supporters are vile, then you have no idea of just how you, Kitta, and the iceaura's of this world are coming across. To wit, there is very little difference between Trump's supporters in how they defended his sexual assaults, and how you are defending Franken's sexual assaults for the same reason as they do it. Politics.

    What rights and life were stripped from Franken?

    Was he hung from a tree outside his house? Was he stripped of his belongings and money? Were his family threatened or beaten? Was he threatened with violence from the so called "mob"? No. The suggestion was that he resign, when the count reached 8 women. He chose to resign.
    *Raise eyebrows*

    Oh the depths you plunge to to defend sexual assault for politics. I mean, for a grown man to abase himself to this extent to defend what he has done, is there something else going on that could possibly explain why you are acting in such a desperate manner?
    Oh, are you insulted that I called you out on your frankly dumb historical appropriation of violence against African Americans in your country's history, to defend Franken?
    Are you suggesting that all of those women lied, EF?
    Of course he can. If it was slander, he could have sued. But he is not and is choosing not to. If you are that concerned about his welfare, why don't you encourage him to sue because you seem to believe it is slander? I mean, there is a reason why he is not suing, because it would end badly for him (since the accusations against him is not slander), but perhaps if you hear it from your holy man's mouth, it might just sink in?
    He wasn't lynched. His colleagues suggested he should resign. He chose to resign.

    Emphasis added. I mean, for most people, that emphasis would not be required because it's obvious, alas...
  11. Bells Staff Member

    How do you know people were constantly calling and messaging him? I mean, he is a senator and people would be calling and messaging him on a daily basis in the course of his employ to begin with, but his family and acquaintances? Where are you getting that from? Or are you just fleshing out the story because you don't actually have a leg to stand on here and you are that desperate that you are coming across like a two bit writer for the right, defending candidates who sexually assault women?
    Yes EF, this was all planned in advance in a vast conspiracy... Do you believe in chemtrails as well?
    Why do you think all of those women are lying?
    Yep. It's all a conspiracy to take down one Senator. I am surprised it didn't slip past you.

    Aren't you a clever little duck!
    You know, there's only so much reinvention of facts that can be tolerated before I start to question your motives here.
    How would you ruin my life? Oh wait, do you think my family, friends, former colleagues, the legal community would believe you when you openly admitted to inventing it just to cause harm? Or is this an actual threat? How stupid are you?

    And as I noted above, Franken is free to sue. But again, it isn't slander if it is true. Now consider why he is not suing for slander. I know, I am expecting you to use your brain, but do try.
    Great. So why doesn't he sue?

    You think I "each" children?
    Well Franken has 8 women accusing him, with corroborating evidence. You have something you invented on this website with the specific intent to slander, with the encouragement of Kitta, in a stupid attempt to score a point in both of your defenses of sexual assault.
    So, give his office a call and suggest he sue. He won't, because it isn't slander if it is true.
    You keep saying that they are, with no proof whatsoever that they have been.
  12. Bells Staff Member

    I disagree. I think he used his position to get away with it.


    Numerous high-profile cases of sexual violence and abuse have have been exposed in recent years, with the same words cropping up again and again: “groping”, “fondling”, “inappropriate touching”. What each of these terms usually means is sexual assault. But both in casual conversation and in the press, we will go to almost any lengths to avoid saying it.


    Undermining sexual violence through diminishing language is prevalent but not new. Consider, for example, the popular online meme that states: “It’s not rape, it’s a struggle snuggle.”

    It’s a trivialisation that leads to a culture where victims are doubted and/or blamed. Was it really sexual assault, or just a quick caress? Are you honestly going to make a fuss about a pat on the bottom? Sure, he’s the president-elect, but lighten up, he was just joking about grabbing women by the pussy! It’s the sort of language that allows a mainstream television programme to “debate” the acceptability of sexual assault using a question such as: “Is a bum pinch harmless fun?

    By not pointing out how unacceptable this culture is, we become complicit in the message that victims are already receiving loud and clear: this isn’t really a big deal, you won’t be taken seriously, it’s not worth going to the police. According to the Crime Survey for England and Wales, one of the most frequently cited reasons for not reporting sexual offences is that they seemed “too trivial” to report.

    It is a message so entrenched in society that the vast majority of women and girls are completely unaware that being touched on the breasts, grabbed between the legs or squeezed on the bottom, among other common experiences, could constitute sexual assault. Many girls come to see this behaviour as normal – expected even – and simply the price you pay for being a woman. This means not only that victims are much less likely to report what has happened (or feel able to complain in a workplace, nightclub or school setting), but also that perpetrators are unaware of the severity of committing such offences.

    Unfortunately, the term sexual assault has become so little understood that it is sometimes necessary to talk about “touching” or “grabbing” in order to elicit accurate responses. Far fewer people might report “sexual assault” in a survey, for example, than would describe having been touched without their consent.

    Words such as “groping” and “fondling” are incapable of carrying the weight of the experiences they are stretched to encompass: an elderly woman pinned roughly against a wall in her home by a friend of her late husband; an 11-year old girl too afraid to report the male classmate stroking the inside of her thigh under the desk during a geography lesson; a university student out running when a passerby grabbed her suddenly and firmly by the breasts; a video store cashier whose boss would smack her bottom each time she went up the ladder to the storeroom. All stories that have been relayed to me personally, several through tears. A litany of sexual assaults, reduced to something flimsy and dismissible. Moments that profoundly affect women’s lives, diminished and whitewashed


    Language has such power. When we deny victims the words to describe and define their own experiences we actively disempower them and distance them from justice. We owe it to all survivors to start describing “groping” and “fondling” by their real name: sexual assault.

    Let me know when you are done diminishing it, oh sorry, applying a 'reasonable' distinction, for the sake of your politics...
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Well I'm pretty sure he was getting a lot more calls, and those senators and the DNC telling him to resign, I would guess that had to come from somewhere.

    So let me get this straight, you are now denying there was no calls for his resignation now?

    One conservative radio show host working with roger stones is not as complex of a conspiracy as "chemtrails". Witch hunts from Salem to McCarthy to Satanic Panic are not conspiratorially, they follow a clear pattern of mass hysteria, group thing and exaggaration in order to confirm and belief and get attention. Are you denying McCarthy did not happen?

    The first one to spite a democrat and for attention, the others simply for attention to be part of the trendy #Metoo hysteria, and the annyoymous ones vary well may not exist at all and are simply a e-journalist/blogger creating an article to get clicks and to make money.

    No it is a moral panic just like the ones in the past (which seem to come in 30 years cycles, serious we had Satanic Panic in 1980's, and the red scare/mccarthism in the 1950's) of which A USA senator was taken down, as well as a lot of mostly liberal men, as the conservative ones are immune because the moral panic is not on the conservative side of political divide.

    So then you don't support social media as a format to call people out for sexual assault/harassment?

    If there was thousands of me I"m pretty sure we would get to at least some of them. I been speaking of a hypothetical this whole time, to point out your hypocrisy, it is not my fault you can't see it.

    That the financial cost would be great, that it will take months to get the lawyers together and the number of people to be sue would be limited by finances.

    Sure, look your fault you can't understand past simple spelling errors, anyways else would conclude "each" is an adjective not a verb and that a verb is needed there that is similar to "each" in contact with past claims. I mean at this point your being blatantly obtuse.

    Nope, 4 named women at most and only a claim of 4 more, with no evidence other then some pictures that do not show any actual groping.

    I'm using your logic that accusations of criminal conduct are acceptable to spread via social media, on the self-righteous belief that they are true, thus not slander. You are merely turning around a hypothetical to claim you were threatened, and yet if you were actually threatened by my claims, then that proves my point. What would be wrong with me having my opinion that you eat children? It is just an opinion that I have the freedom to speech to blab about, right? And if now you have a problem with unproven slander (because it is on you) well then that means maybe you need to rethink all the accusations on social media. Either you are being blatantly obtuse again or you really don't see your hypocrisy yet.

    Not sueing is not proof of guilt either.

    Let look at it another way: Do you think OJ simpson killed his wife and Ron Goldman? Even though the civil court did find him financially responsible for their "wrongful deaths" we can't officially call him a murderer.

    So he resigns for shits and giggles, those 20 senators totally did not tell him to resign, all those articles and social media was simply the sound of silence?

    -- once again two post from you, the post limit exist for a reason... does it James? I will ignore the first post to keep things from getting longer.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  14. Bells Staff Member

    So you are guessing that he was being harassed on the phone, etc?

    You could only come up with that if you have a severe reading and comprehension issue you.
    While ignoring the 7 other women, the greater majority of whom identified as Democrats. Are they working with Roger Stone as well?

    Or are you suggesting that these women are all somehow or other hysterical and suddenly came up with a story about his groping them and somehow or other roping other women and men to corroborate their story...?
    Well yes EF. Women make sooo much money and become so famous in accusing powerful men of sexual harassment and sexual assault...

    Why do you persist in engaging in a myth? And a dangerous myth at that?

    Moral panic for whom?

    Do you equate women speaking out against sexual violence to be a moral panic?

    There's that reading and comprehension issue flaring up again.

    Would you rather sexual assault and sexual harassment stayed hidden to protect your sensitivities?
    Oh no, I know exactly what you are on about and have stated as such. It's interesting that you now retreat to the point of a hypothetical, after you and at least one other boasted about how I could not prove you wrong, despite the fact that you were doing this openly. There could be one million of you doing it, the fact is that the false accusation stemmed from you and there is more than ample proof of what you were doing and why you were saying you were going to spread that malicious rumor. To wit, my question of whether you really are that stupid prevails.
    Well if it is slander, the financial gain for him would be greater. Are you now trying to make excuses for him to not sue, despite arguing that he has been slandered? Al Franken is quite wealthy. Are you now suggesting that he is poor and cannot afford to sue the people you have claimed are slandering him?
    What spelling errors?

    The issue is that you are typing different words altogether. "Eat" vs "Each". The irony is that you think the word "each" is a spelling error. The sad part is that you hit two keystrokes instead of one, and they are in different directions for one (you went down instead of up to hit the "c") and would have had to use the right hand to hit the "h" instead of the left to hit the "t".

    It's not the first time you have done it. Last time you claimed "dispute" was a spelling error for "despite"....

    The correct thing to say is that you meant to say this instead of that. Not try to pass it off as a typo or spelling error.
    Ah so you don't think those 4 exist now? And you are adding the requirement of 'pics or it didn't happen' while downplaying the pic that does exist of at least one incident.. Interesting.

    The problem is that you think what you are applying logic.

    Firstly, you did not cite your original accusation as a hypothetical.
    You then advised that you could make that public and again advised how it is a crime I "must have committed".
    There are several posts of how you would go about doing it with further reiterations of just how I did it.

    Now, I could very well take it as a threat and would be well within my rights to do so. The claim that you meant it as a hypothetical is new, something you have just latched on to.

    Secondly, you are now claiming it is an "opinion", when you never originally cited it as an opinion but as a direct accusation that I murder children and eat them.

    Thirdly, I have proven slander. Because you also detailed how and why you were slandering me.

    So, you might want to rethink your strategies, EF.
    No, not suing is not proof of guilt. Remember, you are the one who keeps demanding that it is slander against Franken. You are the one who keeps demanding that all the women who accused him are lying and you also cited some far fetched conspiracies to do so.

    As for your OJ Simpson example, yes, I do think he killed his wife and Goldman. That is my opinion based on the evidence at hand. Are you capable of understanding the intricacies of those distinctions?
    The point was they did not lynch him.

    And I could have kept it to one post, and just responded with 'you're a moron', but I think it's best to explain why I think you are a misogynistic moron in detail.

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  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    You can "think" as you please, but the claims made - the accounts of the women speaking - are on record, and they are as I described. You are disagreeing with them, not me.
    You simply cannot post honestly, in any manner, here. You can't. But that little rhetorical stunt is probably the most contemptible in your bag of tricks.

    Hiding your own bs behind the victims, using them for cover, to avoid addressing the major issues your lies, slanders, and misrepresentations create, is not ok. It's not a good thing to do. It is not only morally and ethically bankrupt, but politically stupid. It weakens you, politically - creates vulnerabilities where you once had strengths.

    First rule of marketing: the name acquires the attributes of the thing, not vice versa. You can't change the reality by renaming it. The attempt is foolish, at best, and it will look foolish, at best. The DFL needs, above all, to look capable and competent and reliable in the coming months - that's the classic, standard, historical pivot around which its fortunes turn. And right now those fortunes are the only alternative to the Republican Party's.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  16. Bells Staff Member


    The former staffer said she ducked to avoid Franken’s lips. As she hastily left the room, she said, Franken told her: “It’s my right as an entertainer.”

    “He was between me and the door, and he was coming at me to kiss me. It was very quick, and I think my brain had to work really hard to be like ‘Wait, what is happening?’ But I knew whatever was happening was not right, and I ducked,” the former aide said in an interview. “I was really startled by it, and I just sort of booked it towards the door, and he said, ‘It’s my right as an entertainer.’”


    As quoted in my previous post to you:

    Undermining sexual violence through diminishing language is prevalent but not new. Consider, for example, the popular online meme that states: “It’s not rape, it’s a struggle snuggle.”

    It’s a trivialisation that leads to a culture where victims are doubted and/or blamed. Was it really sexual assault, or just a quick caress? Are you honestly going to make a fuss about a pat on the bottom? Sure, he’s the president-elect, but lighten up, he was just joking about grabbing women by the pussy! It’s the sort of language that allows a mainstream television programme to “debate” the acceptability of sexual assault using a question such as: “Is a bum pinch harmless fun?

    By not pointing out how unacceptable this culture is, we become complicit in the message that victims are already receiving loud and clear: this isn’t really a big deal, you won’t be taken seriously, it’s not worth going to the police. According to the Crime Survey for England and Wales, one of the most frequently cited reasons for not reporting sexual offences is that they seemed “too trivial” to report.

    As I noted above, let me know when you are done doing this for the sake of your politics.
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    No integrity, no honesty, no apparent self-awareness even.
    Which is of course unimportant for my concerns outside this forum, being confined to where your posting habits are familiar.

    But in my State and political region, this kind of bubble-brained bs is a shared feature of a significant and influential faction of the DFL. And there are only ten months until the gerrymander-critical election of 2018. Your crowd here has managed to put both Senate seats and the Governorship on the line in an atmosphere of incoherent and incompetent DFL sponsored shit-flinging, at once presenting the DFL as in the business of "sending messages" rather than getting anything done, and demonstrating this by removing the single most reliable and effective women's rights vote and spokesman in the entire Minnesota Congressional contingent, not even up for election, to "send a message" about women's rights

    in the middle of the budget battle, and during the major Judiciary hearings of Trump's first term.

    They look like fools. They look like they got played. That's how liberals lose elections. And they had this one in the bag.

    Ok. Ten months to recover. Not impossible. Not hopeless. Cross your fingers Dayton's appointee can stiffen their spine, steady their voice, quick study the parliamentary stuff, come across as capable, step up, not get punked too badly in the Senate before November. Franken seems to be doing what he can - good choice of resignation day, word is that his staff is willing to transition ? Klobuchar will never amount to progressive or leader, but she began with a large cushion in the polls - and the Reps haven't really got anyone, yet, well-positioned to beat her.

    And then the wild card of the Governor and House races. What a mess.
  18. Bells Staff Member


    It is everyone and not you who is wrong.
    I have a crowd? Cute.

    The message was sent. Has been for a while now. Groping and sexually harassing and assaulting women is not acceptable. And the expectation that women settle for a man who has done that to 8 women as being their voice is obscene in the extreme. I should not have to explain why, should I?
    Ah, what you won't do for politics..

    Those damn women! How dare they speak out against sexual harassment and sexual assault!


    It's okay iceaura. Everything will turn out okay....

    There there.. It will be fine.
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Oh yeah. An entire faction. And they're going to be even more famous than Ann Wynia and Hilary Clinton made them, if they manage to lose both MN Senate seats to the Republicans in the same year. That's something one would have thought impossible, two months ago.
    "Everyone"? These people think they are "everyone"?
    No self-awareness at all.
    Which is a partial explanation of your inability to post honestly - the only actual issue with your posts.
    That's the message you think "was sent"? You'd have to be an idiot.
    More likely you just don't bother to align your posts with thought in the first place - another partial explanation for the lies etc.
    Fish gotta swim, liars gotta lie.
    The sheer stupidity of that, not its dishonesty and attempted slander, with Trump sitting in the White House and David Stras taking his lifetime seat on the Eighth Circuit, is striking. These people do not learn from experience, even enough to lie and slander effectively.

    So they've been running their mouths and then believing their own bs, ok, and they've made a mess of course as bubblebrains will; moving on, the question remains: how much damage have they done and will they do in the upcoming elections? Will their manifest incompetence and cluelessness have done and do enough harm to the DFL to usher in a Republican coup of the entire upper echelon of Minnesota politics?

    Because that would be bad, see.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    We should all get t-shirts!
    And to think, all of it would have been preventable...
    No no, I was agreeing with you.

    The figure when it was just one accusation was around half.. Or was that more by then?

    Wonder what the survey would say with 8 accusations.

    But we are all wrong. And you are always right and correct and true..

    Well clearly there are some holdouts who cannot cope with their men being accused of sexual harassment and sexual assault. They tend to worm their way out of the woodwork and as my colleague was fond of saying, 'sunshine is the best disinfectant'.

    Sure, some will argue 'depends on the politics' when asked what 'level of sexual assault is acceptable to them that they are willing to leave them in place for the rest of their term, for the sake of politics', and a large portion agree that it is not acceptable by any stretch of the imagination and people who commit such acts should not be protected and should be made to resign from such positions of power. I mean, we know which side you fall on, along with the EF's of this world.

    Your message was sent. Loud and clear.

    Misogynists gotta keep digging that hole..

    What? You seem somewhat distressed...

    Please, let it all out...
  21. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    That's the problem... this rampant inability to look more than ten minutes into the future and see the long-term ramifications of handing the reigns over to a party that readily, willingly, and gleefully exploits the known failure of their base to apply standards and logic to their own candidates, instead happily believing whatever they are told to believe. The result being what we have right now - the entirety of the government controlled by a single party, and yet they cannot pull their head from their asses long enough to accomplish anything of value (well, they have managed to write in the massive tax breaks for their corporate pimps, but other than that, it's been a mess). This is the same party that continually fights to limit the rights of women to make decisions about their own body, limit access to birth control and reproductive health services, and champions folks who say, honestly and loudly, that a woman's place is barefoot in the kitchen.

    You'd THINK they'd be a bit more worried about the potential implications of allowing such a party to make multiple lifetime appointments to the judiciary, enshrine in law their particular brand of bible-thumping crazy, and take further steps to consolidate and protect their power from any and all possible threats. I mean, for fucks sake, this is the party that has championed folks who have made such absurd statements as "you cannot rape your wife" (Trump's lawyer), "I think that when you get married you have consented to sex" (Phyllis Schlafly), and "Damn it, when you get married, you kind of expect you’re going to get a little sex." (Senator Jeremiah Denton).

    Or, how about this doozy: "I don’t know how on Earth you could validly get a conviction in a husband-wife rape when they’re living together, sleeping in the same bed, she’s in a nightie and so forth. There’s no injury, there’s no separation, or anything." (Richard “Dick” Black - Virginia State Senator)

    Or perhaps Todd Akin's pronouncement that women "cannot get pregnant from legitimate rape".

    Then there's a desire to protect a man's privacy, in the form of "We need to stay out of a man’s bedroom." (Charlie Sharpe of South Carolina)

    Let us be real here... on the whole, the Republican party has not, does not, and will not give a good Goddamn about women's rights, women's safety, or their right to govern their own body... and now they have a powerful tool to use to knock down any challengers to their power, knowing that even a rumor of sexual assault will almost certainly torpedo the chances of anyone running against them, while their own supporters will largely claim it to be fake news.

    Yay democracy...?
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    I bolded the two lies, that your entire posting there depended on. FYI - you seem literally unaware of what has become reflex in your posting.
    You should all get a clue.
    Some of the damage still is - but you guys getting a clue is unlikely. So the DFL has to deal with what is coming as well as what has happened. They have ten months to dig out - and Tina Smith to do it with.
    Lies, slanders, misrepresentations - the entire content of your posting here in response to me.
    Imagine that. Of course, Trump did not become your President, and you obviously don't give a shit about the real live women in my State, so the consequences of such braindead incompetence are theoretical matters of no importance to you.
    The only remaining question here is why you cannot post differently from that right there - honestly, or reasonably, or even intelligently; with argument or observation rather than innuendo and deflection; with recognition rather than denial;
    why you are so firmly committed to your nasty little shitworld of bubblebrained lies, slanders, and misrepresentations regardless of their consequences in real life.

    That is apparently the only issue I am allowed to deal with, in this thread. Ok - hypotheses, anyone?
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Are you now suggesting that that was not what you said in response to that question?

    But we do have a clue. And the t-shirts could be quite apt.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Oh no. I meant it could have been preventable if Al Franken had just kept his chubby mitts to himself and not groped women without their consent.

    But I get why that one would pass you by.

    I mean, instead of blaming him for his behaviour which led to his downfall, you seem to be blaming everyone else.

    Yep. You and your little buddies are the one's pitching a fit that Al Franken was asked to resign for sexually assaulting multiple women.

    Not me.

    But I do care about the women in your State. Which is why I am appalled that people would still defend a serial groper for the sake of politics.

    Talk about embracing rape culture for political ideology and identity.

    Keep hugging it, iceaura. That shit sticks like glue.
    And why are you whining that I am taking your words and your argument at face value and then accusing me of slander, lies, etc?

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