Discussion in 'World Events' started by StrawDog, Mar 11, 2009.
What is your MISSION?
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Well, it's been redefined a little bit now that we have a new president. But basically it's to rid the world of al-Queda and the Taliban and any and all other Muslim extremists who murder other Muslims. See? We like Muslims and don't want those other bastards to murder them!
We've also extended that mission into Pakistan ...we don't like Pakistani Muslim to kill all those nice Muslims in Pakistan, either.
Haha, if we follow Barons method, all Al Qaeda was doing killing those Americans/Christians that were and still contineu their fellow Americans/Christians every single day, and thats not even in a warzone!
I think the majority of Americans don't understand that this isn't a war between Muslims vs. Americans. Not all those who call themselves Muslims represent the majority Muslim viewpoint. Among Muslims their are collaborators who support the US, and those who resist the US presence. Then there are those, who always thrive in a conflict zone and exploit the situation to kidnap civilians, ransom them, and create panic to exploit the civilian population.
If you think all Muslims represent Islam, you are sadly mistake. There are many people who call themselves Muslims, who don't represent Islam and are accomplices to the genocide waged against our people by foreigners. Don't forget that even when the Russians invaded Afghanistan, some Afghanis supported the Russian invasion.
If you make in your mind a strict dichotomy of Muslims representing one group, regardless of their allegiance and representation of the populations they claim to represent, your view regarding the situation shall be hopelessly distorted.
Yes, some people who claim to call themselves Muslims kill Muslims. Some people who claim to be Americans kill and lynch fellow Americans, some Americans who claim to be Americans drown their own children and murder their wives. Who represents America? Those who are peaceful citizens, or the absolute worse of American society? The same can be said of Afghani or Iraqi society, except however both of these societies have faced 200 years of colonialism followed by dictators and foreign invasions. Now if American society can produce mass murderers who kill their fellow citizens, why can't these societies also produce such fringe elements?
I understand completely what you are trying to do. It is dishonest and you know it.
This is so naive, it would be cute if lives were not at stake.
So according to Baron, the "MISSION" redefines itself with every new administration? That utterly denigrates the integrity and legality of the invasion.
So in its infinite wisdom, (according to BM) the US has granted itself the role of Muslim extremist exterminator? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The one strategy not yet tried is to stay the HELL out of the Muslim affairs out side of the US.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I bet your are saying that with a straight face and in all sincerity. Sigh.
What you are saying is that you have extended your meddling, interference, destabilization and warmongering into Pakistan.
Its not a game. This could be the dog that bites back.
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Pls remidn me fo the objectives cos i have forgotten?
Stabilising and rebuilding. Installing a government, along with a competent defense and police force, who will ensure that the Taliban does not re-establish itself and provide a base of operations for terrorists in the future.
Many (including myself) believe that if we pull out now, we will be back to square one. The Taliban will re-establish itself as the dominant force in Afghanistan, and it will once again become a safe haven from which terrorists can launch attacks against other nations.
You are already back to square one. How many times has the US installed other governments and how many times have the people turned on them, or the government accused of corruption and crimes against humanity? You didnt destroy the Taliban. YOu didnt find Osama. You are still at square one. Instead of wasting money on 2 needless wars, you should have just setup a specialisted force to trak Osama down. That way you wouldnt have given Al Qaeda 2 bases of training and ensured that the people of 2 countries wouldnt hate you.
So you would suggest simply backing down and going home? Can you guarantee that extremists would not strike against Western nations in revenge against perceived injustices, because they want spread Islam to the House of War, or just because they don't like the decadent West? The U.S.A was not occupying any countries prior to 9.11, yet that did not prevent a terrorist attack that resulted in 2000+ dead. Australians were also targeted by Indonesian terrorists in the Bali bombings, despite the fact that we had no soldiers occupying or invading that region.
No, a can of worms has been opened, and the Allies must see this thing through. If that means hunting down and killing every Muslim terrorist and terrorist sympathiser, then so be it. If we must flatten every terrorist stronghold, glass every training camp, then that is what we must do. We can't allow this den of vipers to exist to threaten us any longer.
Despite the war being poorly conducted, we are not back at square one. The Taliban has been routed, its grip over the region has been broken.
The US has attempted to improve its own security by supporting governments who shared a common interest. Sometimes this was a success, other times it backfire.
Their power has been broken.
Which is unfortunate. But if we can prevent anti-Western extremists from re-establishing a hold of Afghanistan, then mission success.
A specialised force would be good, but we still need to deal with countries who harbour terrorists. For every extremist leader dead, there is another willing to take their place.
The Taliban operates as close as a couple of miles outside of Kabul
And the only ocountry that can, with a straight face, say that its good to do this is the US
You really think they need Afghanistan? Iraq is the far better option for them what with the free training base provided by the West.
And this is the excuse to invade whatever country you like. Fact of the matter is that just ebcause terrorists are located in a specific country, it doesnt mean they are harbouring them. How many known terrorists are there in the US right now? Or in the UK? Does that mean that the US or the UK is harbouring those terrorists, or just that those people are there even though the government doesnt want them? Does that mean that other countries can go and invade the US and UK?
Read that statement, DH, read it carefully. Basically what ye're saying is that Muslim communities can't control their own populations! In your words above, you're basically saying that any Muslim can do whatever the fuck he wants to, whenever he wants to. And, yes, that's the way it seems to Americans ....that Muslim-populated nations just run amuck!!
And yet you and other Muslims here on sciforums seem to think that all Americans hold the exact same viewpoint. Well, just like you noted above, Americans hold many different views .....but please notice that Americans have laws and rules, and anyone who blows up people ends up in jail for it. In Muslim countries, those same bombers often remain free ...as well as often being cheered and called heroes by other Muslims for their horrific deeds!
If Muslim nations could control their own populations, and keep criminals from committing horrific crimes, then Americans probably wouldn't have to do anything at all. If the Afghanis had controlled ObL and his crew, and not permitted them in their nation, then the attacks on America probably would never have happened. Then, even after the attacks, the Afghanis protected the criminal ObL and wouldn't give him up. And y'all call yourselves civilized?
That is only true in a technical and essentially meaningless sense.
The US was deeply and obviously involved, with weapons and money and military force and economic meddling, throughout the Middle East. The targets of 9/11 were not chosen at random, or without immediately obvious motive. No one in the Middle East who accepted that Islamic jihadists did it had a moment's doubt about why.
What exactly is our common interest with the House of Saud?
Can America control every on in its own populations? Can America control school shootings, wife abuse, murder of children, rape, crime in their country? Yet you expect this of societies who have been occupied and whose infrastructure are in absolute ruins?
Also, why are you talking like a redneck?
I have never given any indication that I believe all Americans have the same view. This is a preposterous notion.
You expect there to be infrastructure, law, and order in countries whose infrastructure the American warmachine, itself, destroyed and obliterated from years of bombings. You expect Muslim societies to be even more secure and safe in occupation of foreign countries than the US in peacetime? You expect Muslim societies to be some kind of fairy tale where everything is peaceful and easy on occupiers? This is not fantasy, this is reality. 200 years of foreign control by the Europeans, followed by nearly 60 years of oppressive secular dictators, and the complete dismantling of all religious institutions by the state. And still you blame Islam for all of this? Islam isn't to blame, the lack of Islam is.
No Muslim would cheer an attack on a mosque or on their own civilians. It is merely US propaganda.
Again, see above. Islam has been stripped from the state in almost all Muslim countries, Muslim political parties are routinely tortured and executed, foreign countries have unprecedented influence over our internal affairs, and many Muslim regions on the periphery of the Islamic world are under the occupation of stronger states. You expect the internal affairs of these nations to thrive and for their to be unprecedented peace and security across all Muslim realms. Wake up. This is not going to happen. The reality is this. We have had Islam forcibly stripped out of our lives, to expect Muslim governments, who daily suppress Muslim clergy and intellectuals, from exercising influence in the state is preposterous. We are human beings, not super heroes. Do we want peace and security? Of course we do. Can we achieve it through only our wishing it? Never. As the West attempted to end the daily oppression of Muslims in by the states which they back? No.
So now you ask how to best achieve peace? Stop backing the dictators, No.1. Stop supporting Israel, No.2. Leave all occupied Muslim territory, No.3. Never interfere in the internal affairs of Muslim nations again and allow the people to govern by whatever they choose, No.4.
To expect Muslim nations under foreign occupation and war to be havens of peace and security, is completely ridiculous. More ridiculous is the fact that the fault lies not with the destruction and seemingly lack of willingness by the occupiers to restore normalcy to the lives of the people, but with Islam.
Except of course that there is NO EVIDENCE that the Taliban committed any attacks against "other" nations. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Who cares? They are aligned with organizations that do, philosophically, if not practically.
The same exact attitude got the US into Iraq. 'Who cares if they don't have WMDs?' LOL
That doesn't matter. We could not be sure about the WMD's, but the alignment between the Taliban and Al Quida is a matter of record.
The handful of incidents that have allegedly been committed by "extremists" do not warrant full blown invasions and warfare. The entire "anti decadent West" is a fantasy sucked out of Cheney`s arse. These are pretexts for forceful acquisition of mineral wealth.
Um. Only one conviction of an individual in relation to 9/11 has been achieved, and that confession was obtained under (illegal) duress. Read "torture". The other attacks that you mention were committed by extremist and are not condoned by mainstream Islam or Afghanistan, or Iraq, etc.
What you are trying to say is: If it means hunting down every Muslim eh?
According to your reasoning, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Pakistan are terrorist strongholds?
And that, in a nutshell, is the sentiment achieved by the indoctrination and anti Muslim propaganda machine in the good old US of A.
Here is an example of the utter overreaction and fear mongering achieved.
When last has there been an (insert enemy of the day here) attack on American soil?
You say the damnedest things Spider.
Separate names with a comma.