Absolutely Nothing: Atheists on What They Know About What They Pretend to Discuss

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, Nov 15, 2017.

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  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I get it..it is the weekend and you are not thinking so well. That's ok enjoy yourself.
    Alex
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps this will help

    Humpty - There's glory for you

    Alice - I don't know what you mean by glory

    Humpty - I meant there's a nice knock-down argument for you

    Alice - But glory doesn't mean a nice knock-down argument

    Humpty - When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less

    Alice - The question is whether you can make words mean so many different things

    Humpty - The question is which is to be master

    Abridged

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/12608-when-i-use-a-word-humpty-dumpty-said-in-rather

    If you haven't worked out to are in Alice in Wonderland realm I feel for you

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  5. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Don’t worry Alex. You can have the last word.
    It’s the least I can do.
     
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  7. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean: "... the universe is beginning less"? It sounds odd.
     
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Meaning the universe has always been.
    It never came into being, nor will it ever go out of being.
    Meaning the universe is infinite.
     
  9. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I don't understand what you mean, but it's all good, right?
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Click to leave your mind at the back of the plane.

    Of every weird thing Jan has ever said, sometimes I'm amazed at what people get hung up on.

    Seriously, if we follow this back to Xelasnave at #641↑"For you to protect your belief you must ignore looking at videos that tell the history of and evolution of religion. The history shows it is all made up ...all of it made up."—it ought to be pretty obvious which part Jan is playing with. To phrase, "all of it made up", is open to word games, and that's precisely what happens.

    Amid everything else, "the universe is beginning less", is really so confusing? I mean, sure, there's a typo in an irregular word, but his answer to your inquiry is pretty straightforward.

    All that bullshit, and this is the part that grabs your attention and has you confused?

    †​

    I once had a discussion about quality of discussion. Okay, I've had a few of those, over time, but I'm thinking of one in particular. The problem reads like a vicious circle—set low standards, complain about the result [rinse, repeat]—and what always seems striking is the manner in which ostensibly intelligent people are expected to jump in and ring around the rosy.

    The Sciforums version of it would look at the scattered street preacher who makes no sense, has no real flock, and spends his time muttering after his own gratification in ways most of us just don't understand, and raise him up as an idol. And if you actually make the point about this self-inflicted fret and fear, there is always someone who will decide the real problem is that the street preacher might not be flattered by your failure to find him so intelligent, important, or otherwise devilishly dangerous.

    As I happened to tell, well, the actual Jan Ardena, once upon a time↑, people need him to be or feel more dangerous than he really is:

    If I say, mostly harmless, and, don't panic, there are at least a couple of people here who ought to know what that means. But they need [Jan] to be more akin to the Devil itself, and so [he is] just that much more important to them.

    Meanwhile, it remains true I often don't care if certain people fail to be flattered by my assessment of their capacities.

    Talk about Poe's Law: A tweet crossed my thread, today, and the controversy it stirred resulted in the author explicitly making the point that her original tweet was satire; the only reason I knew it was satire was the fact of how it crossed my thread, that is, who retweeted it. Any friend of Nicholas Nickleby, y'know. But without that external cue, it was impossible to tell the difference 'twixt the satire and the usual Poe Effect involving the need to discern genuine Sanders supporters from provocateurs and bots.

    The Sciforums version is the belief that some of our advocates of the supernatural are somehow dangerous. Jan Ardena has no flock but those who need him as an idol to lash against. In a manner at once most convoluted yet also so basically codependent, they very nearly fulfill his mission.
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    If only others could see what is going on.

    In my view there is no strong discussion in threads where Jan jumps in and that is certainly the appeal for me here. And I avoid serious discussion.. so..what you observe is somewhat, although tiresome, no more or less than all I expect.
    Iti isw it is.
    I come here only for a chat and a little rib digging ... As you observe Jan needs me and similar folk happy to play meaningless games and we need Jan to play whatever the game may be.

    There is no pretense that game is somehow a meaningful pursuit...if I am required to think in retirement I demand to be paid ten fold any fee received in the past when doing business.

    Perhaps you want to talk with only intelligent folk but for me at my advanced years I really do not want to dig very deep.

    I don't have the time, indeed the ability to contribute to the more serious threads but I do enjoy reading many of them.
    I particularly like reading your stuff you have a wonderful style and I can appreciate such with no need to contribute.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am very happy you at least address my proposition.

    So still in the city. I have two old cars to transport North for "bush bashers" and I find such, although routine, is a major job for those contracted for the transportation..it's raining..we can't handle rain it seems.
    Alex
     
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I went supermarket this morning, 5 km distance, 250cc 4 stroke motorbike, pouring rain. Piece of urine

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    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  14. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Is this about me or Jan?

    Look, infinity is not a real number, so if you start throwing that word around, as Jan did, you already know, that he doesn't know what he's talking about in the first place.

    Could it be some childhood trauma of dying a thousand deaths?
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Just a thought

    The big bad bug at the moment is COVID-19

    A company who is claiming to have a vaccine said they could make the vaccine so soon because COVID-19 was close to SARS which they made a vaccine for

    COVID-19 so close it could be SARS-2

    Score a Elephant stamp on the back of the hand for Evolution

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  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean?
    It is what Alex believes.
     
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I used infinity as, never ending. Not necessarily a mathematical claim.
     
  18. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not Alex.
    Yeah, well whatever.
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I prefer to say the universe had no start and that the little evidence we have suggests there has always been something... there is no evidence that nothing ever existed and one must ask why would we think the universe could come from nothing.
    The big bang theory takes us back to a point immediately after the big bang where our observable universe was very hot and dense. There is nothing in the theory to suggest that the hot and dense something came from nothing other than folk injecting unsupported speculation.

    Is there any reason why one should conclude the hot dense something came from nothing?

    Well one reason I suspect, is, the desire of those initiating such speculation, to give room for the notion of a creation point...so why when the question of what came before the big bang do folk speculate that the universe came from nothing when the theory deals with the evolution of a hot dense something...

    Why can't the universe have always existed? Why is that prospect so difficult to believe when the alternatives seek to ignore that we have never observed nothing and BBT does not mention it.

    Jan I think believes that God did not have a start and has always been present and yet I suspect would reject that the universe could enjoy the same quality.

    What makes more sense...the universe has always existed in some form or that a God has always existed who at some point decided to create a finite universe.

    If God had no beginning why is it difficult to imagine the universe had no beginning...I think when GR was first applied it's it's author envisaged a static universe...and then the BBT was proposed and the sums were adjusted to support the BBT...unfortunately even GR could not be driven back to a point of nothing...even a singularity is something.
    Alex
     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing

     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Q.

    I have heard all that before.

    I contend it is mere speculation.

    The question remains ...why look for nothing when our best theory upon the evolution of the universe does not take us past something.

    And if we speculate that the universe came from nothing perhaps the most obvious question would be...how long did nothing exist before the happenings occurred upon which this nothing started to become something.
    It's a while since I looked at the video so I will look again but my first impression probably won't change..he is selling a book and had the sense to appeal to a very wide audience..theists and atheists.
    Each are able to use the "nothing" approach to support their position. One will see it as evidence of God the others the opposite.
    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Looked at the video again very enjoyable presentation.
    Alex
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't mean it was the universe.
    It is energy that can neither be created or destroyed, not universes.
    It depends what you mean by no thing.
    We can't observe energy directly, but it is there.
    In that sense, it is not a thing. A thing is an object, made of matter, that can be seen and touched. So the universe could indeed come into being from no thing.
    Because that would make the universe infinite.
    That would make us, infinite.
    Plus all the things we see and observe.
    I think the stuff the universe is made up of, is infinite, but not the universe.
    The universe is made up of stuff.
    Stuff is a manifestation of energy/matter.
    Matter is alway changing.
     
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