Absolute zero

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Beaconator, May 27, 2021.

  1. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    Are you somewhat clumsily trying to ask what would be a correct statement instead of the one you asked about in #13?
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Reference to Dunning-Kruger even?
    I parse my words very carefully. Apparently you are unable to follow the logic and look for "correct" language as if that implies understanding.

    OK, you have spit your venom. now slither away, please.
     
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  5. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    So I take that last post to mean that you now know that the sentence in #13 is wrong but are not interested in knowing a correct way to phrase it.

    OK!
     
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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Let me try: In a body at absolute zero, the only energy remaining is zero point energy, i.e. the energy left in the ground state. Since there are no energy levels below the ground state, there can be no heat flow from it.
     
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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you. That is what I was trying to say with the fewest words.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    W4u has been told this a dozen times by a dozen different members. Welcome to this not very exclusive club.
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, you just mangled the words, as you always do.
     
  11. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    In that case "absolute zero is the complete absence of heat". It's the "heat-producing energy" that makes what you originally wrote into nonsense.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Now we are engaging in productive discourse.

    That short version was my first choice, but then I anticipated a question about what would cause the absence of heat and tried to use a shorthand version of exchemist's much lengthier explanation. Apparently, he saw fit to include the cause of lack of heat.
    So now we have your even shorter version of mine which is somewhat vague, and a lengthier version that addresses the why and how the lack of heat.

    I am beginning to think that my version might be a happy medium, addressing everything with the fewest words including a short-hand synopsis of the causal relationship.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  13. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    216
    It appears that what you originally asked ("can I use this") wasn't what you actually wanted to ask ("what is a better way of saying this"). Perhaps we'd get here quicker if you asked the actual question you wanted an answer to straight off.
    No it isn't because "heat-producing energy" is nonsense. Heat is a form of energy it isn't produced by energy.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Are there other forms of energy other than heat?

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    In a Flash

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    Light is a form of radiant energy.

    Forms of energy
    There are many different types of energy, which all fall into two primary formskinetic and potential. Energy can transform from one type to another, but it can never be destroyed or created.

    https://www.solarschools.net/knowledge-bank/energy/types
     
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    This area is a minefield, however, if there are pedants about.

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    I have in the past been picked up by physicists for loose language, when talking of "heat energy", since strictly speaking it is internal energy flowing due to temperature difference.

    For some reason this distinction was never really stressed during my education, with the result that if I'm not careful I think of heat as being the energy content of a body due to kinetic energy of its molecules. Which apparently is wrong.
     
  16. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    It's correct for a monatomic gas which is the kind of ideal gas that's usually covered even up to early undergraduate courses but there's more that can go on with more general materials. The molecules of gases that have more than one atom can start vibrating or rotating when they collide which absorbs energy which it can later release to other materials when it collides with them. That's also heat. When you start talking about solids there are all of the vibrational modes of the solid called phonons that are also energy sinks.

    In some senses you could call it all kinetic energy but it isn't all the simple translational kinetic energy of atoms or molecules moving around randomly that you might be imagining.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  17. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah I meant k.e. in rotation and vibration too. (I did spectroscopy and some molecular QM at university).

    My point was that heat seems to be a term used only for energy in transit, flowing from one body to another as a result of a temperature difference, not for the total internal energy present in all these degrees of freedom.
     
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  18. Ssssssss Registered Senior Member

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    Some people say that but I bet they will also use terms like "heat reservoir" (a store of energy in transit that's not in transit) and "heat transfer" (the amount of energy in transit that transitted from one heat reservoir to another) so I wouldn't take such complaints too seriously.
     
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  19. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Haha, you are probably right. But if I look up internet definitions, they indeed all seem to be confined to a flow of internal energy due to a temperature gradient.

    Maybe some (other?

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    ) pedant will show up and comment....
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Here I am! The ignorant word mangler......

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    Methinks we just listened to a pair of pedants discussing the subtleties of thermal energy.

    Thermal energy
    https://www.solarschools.net/knowledge-bank/energy/types/thermal#

    Are all forms of energy heat?
    https://vikaspedia.in/energy/energy-basics/forms-of-energy

    Seems that not all energy IS heat!

    Question: IS gravitational energy heat? Or does applied gravitational energy produce heat?

    Question: in absolute zero, is gravity still effective?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2021
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Of course all forms of energy are not heat. What a daft question.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Reported for, "agreement, followed by ad hominem"
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Reported for misusing terms the poster doesn't understand.
     
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