Zyncod: I was waiting and hoping for your reply and from my research I agree with you. I surmise that all mammals probably do have different blood types due to extensive diverse lineage evolutions and crossbreeding: but reptilia, amphibia, avia, and fish do not; and in these the surface antigens wouldn't matter. There is no evidence that the lower vertebrate have a Rh neg./pos. factor. And certanily mammalian species like mice, have been around so long that "blood groups by mutation and genetic drift" are inevitable. Dwayne, above, states that "horseshoe crabs are supposed to almost be exactly similar in blood or something like that, and they are thinking about using them in some kind of treatment." It would be intersting to know what type of human use their blood could be used for. The same question might go for zebrafish. There has been little, if any, research done beyond this phylogenic area, but if you know of any at all, please post it.
zyncod wrote: "as far as blood groups in mammals go, I think the number of groups is largely a function of how long the particular mammal species has been around and the number of organisms in that species." I certainly agree and think that this line of reasoning should form the basis of our inquiry into multiple blood groups, but we should not limit our reasoning to mammals. Mammals are in the subphylum Vertebrata who are in the phylum Chordata. To answer the question I think we have to look at how long the species has been around and the number of subspecies there are, but a historical phylogenic perspective would not necessitate that only mammals have different blood groups and blood types. However, I know of no research in any other chordates then than that done in mammals (posted above). As far as Zebrafish and Horseshoe Crabs, I would also like to know the above participant's source(s) of their information, but the following is of related interest. "The zebrafish is a special case as an outgroup fish species that diverged from a common ancestor with mammals some 450 million years ago. There are 25 linkage groups in this species, corresponding to 25 chromosomes, but physical assignment of the linkage groups to these chromosomes has not been reported." from "The Promise of Comparative Genomics in Mammals," by Stephen J. O'Brien, Marilyn Menotti-Raymond, William J. Murphy, William G. Nash, Johannes Wienberg, Roscoe Stanyon, Neal G. Copeland, Nancy A. Jenkins, James E. Womack, and Jennifer A. Marshall Graves (www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/1044631.shl) Zebrafish (Cichlids) have both freshwater and saltwater species and they are rapidly evolving in Lake Malawi, East Africa. They are vertebrata with jaws. (www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/9/5107) And then: "Through phylogeny reconstruction we identified 49 genes with a single copy in man, mouse, and chicken, one or two copies in the tetraploid frog Xenopus laevis, and two copies in zebrafish (Danio rerio). For 22 of these genes, both zebrafish duplicates had orthologs in the pufferfish (Takifugu rubripes). For another 20 of these genes, we found only one pufferfish ortholog but in each case it was more closely related to one of the zebrafish duplicates than to the other. Forty-three pairs of duplicated genes map to 24 of the 25 zebrafish linkage groups but they are not randomly distributed; we identified 10 duplicated regions of the zebrafish genome that each contain between two and five sets of paralogous genes. These phylogeny and synteny data suggest that the common ancestor of zebrafish and pufferfish, a fish that gave rise to 22,000 species, experienced a large-scale gene or complete genome duplication event and that the pufferfish has lost many duplicates that the zebrafish has retained." from "Genome Duplication, a Trait Shared by 22,000 Species of Ray-Finned Fish," by John S. Taylor, Ingo Braasch, Tancred Frickey, Axel Meyer, and Yves Van de Peer (www.genome.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/3/382) Also, regarding Horseshoe Crabs: "The horseshoe crabs, known as living fossils, have maintained their morphology almost unchanged for the past 150 million years. The little morphological differentiation among horseshoe crab lineages has resulted in substantial controversy concerning the phylogenetic relationship among the extant species of horseshoe crabs, especially among the three species in the Indo-Pacific region. Previous studies suggest that the three species constitute a phylogenetically unresolvable trichotomy, the result of a cladogenetic process leading to the formation of all three Indo-Pacific species in a short geological time. Data from two mitochondrial genes (for 16S ribosomal rRNA and cytochrome oxidase subunit I) and one nuclear gene (for coagulogen) in the four species of horseshoe crabs and outgroup species were used in a phylogenetic analysis with various substitution models. All three genes yield the same tree topology, with Tachypleus-gigas and Carcinoscorpius-rotundicauda grouped together as a monophyletic taxon. This topology is significantly better than all the alternatives when evaluated with the RELL (resampling estimated log-likelihood) method. from "Phylogenetic relationship among horseshoe crab species: effect of substitution models on phylogenetic analyses," by Xuhua Xia (http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/(...al,32,40;linkingpublicationresults,1:102493,1) Analyzing the above, I think we might be in for a possible quagmire (come on Dwayne. Can you remember anything else about what you have heard? What possible use could we have for Horseshoe blood?). Zebrafish are Vertebrata but Horseshoe crabs are not. So I'm thinking we have to extend our possible range, which still leads us right back to zyncod's tentative hypothesis if we do not limit it to mammals.
Okay, I have the answer about the use of Horseshoe Crab bloods for humans and it has nothing to do with transfusion: it's about finding related harmful bacteria. "The animal's blood also contains fantastically sensitive chemicals used by researchers in discovering harmful bacteria called endotoxins, sometimes found in human blood. In short, the blood of this ancient animal might well save your life some day." from "Understand Him: He's an Old Timer," by Prentice K. Stout (http://seagrant.gso.uri.edu/factsheets/horseshoe_crab.html) also: "How does the horseshoe crab protect the public health? The horseshoe crab plays a vital, if little-known, role in the life of anyone who has received an injectable medication. An extract of the horseshoe crab's blood is used by the pharmaceutical and medical device industries to ensure that their products, e.g., intravenous drugs, vaccines, and medical devices, are free of bacterial contamination. No other test works as easily or reliably for this purpose." from "The Horseshoe Crab," by The Ecological Research and Development Group (ERDG)(www.horseshoecrab.org/med/med.html) also: "The blood of the Horseshoe Crab has a critical component, known as LAL (Limulus Amebocyte Lysate). This unique compound clots when exposed to bacteria or bacterial endotoxins. Since 1977, the US Food and Drug Administration has required that all drugs intended for human use be tested with the compound LAL. Some medical equipment and devices, such as IV tubing, are also tested with LAL. The chitin (shell) of the Horseshoe Crab also has medical benefits. Chitin filaments are used to create suture material and wound dressings for use on burn victims and skin-graft donors. Products made with Horseshoe Crab chitin have been known to accelerate healing by 35-50%, and aid in reducing pain. Now you know that when you use these products, a Horseshoe Crab has helped you directly! Research is currently investigating the anti-viral and anti-cancer activity of Horseshoe Crab blood as well." from "Horseshoe Crabs, Our Living Fossil, Are Disappearing New York State Needs To Protect Them!," by Citizens Campaign for the Environment (www.citizenscampaign.org/campaigns/horseshoe_crabs.htm) also: "Yet the horseshoe crab is just as important to humans as it is to wildlife," he notes. "This animal's blood contains a unique clotting agent that the pharmaceutical industry uses to test intravenous drugs for bacteria. No IV drug reaches your hospital pharmacy without its horseshoe crab test. So if you or someone you love has ever been hospitalized, you owe a lot to the horseshoe crab." from "The Horseshoe Crab - Putting Science to Work to Help "Man's Best Friend," by The University of Delaware Sea Grant College Program (www.oar.noaa.gov/spotlite/archive/spot_delaware.html) and finally: "The discovery of perhaps the horseshoe crab's most important role in human medicine was made by Frederick Bang in the early 1950s. Bang discovered that the blood cells (called amoebocytes) of the horseshoe crab contain a clotting agent that attaches to dangerous endotoxins produced by gram-negative bacteria....Gram-negative bacteria naturally occur in the air we breathe and in the water we drink. They are even found in our intestines! They have existed for hundreds of millions of years, just like horseshoe crabs. People have a mechanism regulated by the liver that prevents absorption of the bacteria from the gastrointestinal tract into the blood system, so under normal, healthy circumstances, gram-negative bacteria pose no threat to people. However, if the bacteria have an opportunity to enter the blood stream, such as through trauma, they can cause high, potentially fatal fevers. Gram-negative diseases include toxic-shock syndrome, spinal meningitis, typhoid, and gonorrhea. Scientists discovered that the fevers were caused by endotoxins which are found in the cell walls of gram-negative bacteria. The term "pyrogens," meaning "burning bodies," was given to these endotoxins. The function of endotoxins is to assist in selective transport of matter into the bacterial cell. They also help to defend the bacterial cell, creating potential damage and antibodies in its host. Bang's studies on horseshoe crabs revealed that the amoebocyte cells in horseshoe crab blood act like a primitive immune system. When a crab is wounded, the amoebocytes swarm to the area and coagulate, forming a viscous gel surrounding the invading bacteria. Unable to escape, the bacteria are soon devoured by defense molecules such as antimicrobial proteins and polypeptides. This blood-clotting mechanism prevents infection from occurring in the horseshoe crab. Bang realized this clotting agent could be used as a fast and accurate way to test pharmaceutical drugs for the presence of gram-negative bacteria. Up until then, drugs were tested by injecting rabbits with the drug and then waiting 48 hours to see if they developed a fever. Within a few years of his initial discovery, Dr. Bang and Dr. Levin had created Limulus amoebocyte lysate, or LAL, and a new method to test for gram-negative bacteria. It was so effective that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) accepted it as a standard test for endotoxins in 1983. Since then, LAL has gained widespread use, replacing rabbit tests for clinical and biomedical applications.... Alternatives to LAL are currently being investigated in India (http://www.nio.org) and China. TAL, or Tachypleus amoebocyte lysate, functions similarly to LAL, aiding in the detection of gram-negative bacteria. Scientists in Singapore are working to clone the toxin-detecting gene in horseshoe crab blood. If the gene can be cloned, LAL derivatives can be prepared without the harvest of horseshoe crabs for blood extraction." from "LAL Research," by the Mid-Atlantic Sea Grant Programs and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration(www.ocean.udel.edu/horseshoecrab/Research/lal.html) Well, I know this info deviates a bit from our initial thread discussion, but does it? In any case, I hope you all find this as fascinating as I do!
That is cool. Most people don't really seem to be aware of the very sophisticated biology of "lower" organisms; the pathogen responses of plants, for example, are highly complex. And as far as the LAL-pyrogen link - to further digress from the topic at hand - about a month ago in my lab, we injected mice with lipopolysaccharide (a potent Gram-negative bacterial cell wall pyrogen) to activate immune cells. However, we probably injected too much, because the mice got incredibly sick - after 24 hours, they just sat there, breathing shallowly and if you pushed them with your finger, they fell over and would not get up. Still, we only injected one-millionth of their body weight of the pyrogen.
You must be a grad student or doctoral level to be experimenting like that, no? What course are you taking that has that type of experimentation going on? Sounds like something I'd like to eventually get into.
I just received a paper about the ABH blood type but it appears that its not a blood type at all. Its a blood group - one of many ways of classifying blood types - based on the antigens present. It appears that H is a glycoprotein antigen. ABH antigen are found on blood cells and activities are present in the mucosa from salivary glands (submandibular glands). There seems to be conflicting data about the presence of the ABH antigens on other non-blood cells (parenchymal cells). I'm not very clear on this myself. "ABO (ABH) BLOOD GROUP SYSTEM — The four common blood groups in the ABO/ABH system are O, A, B, and AB. These occur In the Caucasian population at frequencies of 45, 40, 11, and 4 percent, respectively [3]. These percentages vary somewhat among different ethnic groups. When an individual lacks the A and/or B antigen on the red cells, the plasma will contain naturally-occurring antibodies to the missing antigen(s). Thus, a group A individual will have anti-B antibodies, a group AB individual will have neither anti-A nor anti-B, and a group O patient will have both anti-A and anti-B antibodies. The function of the ABH antigens is unknown. Basic biochemistry — The ABO blood groups are defined by the presence of immunodominant sugars: n-acetylgalactosamine for the "A" antigen and D-galactose for the "B" antigen. Both sugars are built upon the "H" antigen, the immunodominant sugar of which is L-fucose. If the "H" antigen is unmodified, the individual types as Group O. All of these sugars are attached to oligosaccharides carried on glycosphingolipid and glycoprotein chains. Thus, ABH antigens are not an integral part of the membrane and actually extend out above the red cell surface. Unusual phenotypes — The products of the ABH genes are glycosyl transferases, which transfer the immunodominant sugar of each blood group to the backbone chain. In the Bombay phenotype, fucosyl transferase, which conveys H antigen specificity, is lacking. Since the H antigen is the building block for the A and B antigens, neither A nor B can be produced, even in the presence of their respective transferase enzymes. Thus, red cells of the Bombay phenotype lack A, B and H antigens. These individuals have naturally occurring anti-A, anti-B, and broad thermal range anti-H, and can only be transfused with blood from other individuals of the Bombay phenotype (usually a relative), or risk a severe hemolytic transfusion reaction." from "A primer of red blood cell antigens and antibodies" by David W Cohen (http://patients.uptodate.com/topic.asp?file=transfus/11818&title=Helicobacter pylori "the presence and specificity of A, B, and H blood group antigens in human gut mucin glycoproteins, this can influence the populations of bacteria capable of taking up local residence....the bacteria that use ABH antigens for food have a competitive advantage and can thrive in the environment created by the preconditioning of ABH secretions....ABH non-secretors are reported to have shorter bleeding times and a tendency toward higher factor VIII and vWf....Also, secretors of blood group A have been shown to have the lowest numbers of cavities.... from "Metabolic and Immunologic Consequences of ABH Secretor and Lewis Subtype Status" (www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_4_6/ai_78539419/pg_2)
thanks for the info, interesting I've got another question, what would it take to change a blood group of a person (even if it's not technically possible today)? I'm guessing some kind of a gene therapy maybe.. I'm not a biologist thoug so.. can it be theoretically done?
You mean blood type, not blood group - see above. Humans have blood type A, B, AB, and O. You can't change your own blood type because its throughout your cells, so a transfusion - if that's what you might be thinking - can't do it. Its genetrically evolved.
Yes, blood type, sorry. I read what you wrote about the blood group and got a bit confused when replying right after that. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! What does "genetrically" mean?
Sorry, it seems I must sometimes hit two keys or the wrong key when typing fast. I meant "genetically."
Just so there's no confusion, I said "genetically evolved" in reference to the fact as to why we have so many different blood types, but your individual blood type is always inherited from your parents, not evolved. In the context above we were trying to establish a reason why there are so many different bloob types in mammals, and it was suggested that their was a rare ABH blood type. However, it seems like this is a blood group - and a type of antigen within that group - and not a specific blood type. Blood groups are ways of classifying blood types. For example, in dogs they use the DEA system (Dog Erythrocyte Antigen) to group the 15-18 different canine blood types. Erythrocyte means red blood cells and an antigen is a type of protein that is present on the surface of the red blood cells. These different antigens also cause different blood types. Then just like in humans a dog's blood type can be either positive or negative. Since there are so many different blood types in subspecies like dogs, Zyncod and I both seem to think that the reason is because of genetic evolution through bottlenecks and then cross-breeding or through genetic drift. In dogs, some say that any negative blood type except for DEA4 negative are considered universal donors, just like O negative is the universal donor in humans - meaning that anyone can accept that blood type without the immune system rejecting it. In cows and horses it gets even more complex with scores of blood types and in order to classify them all, they use multiple systems. For example in cows they us ten different "blood groups" just to classify all the blood types. We haven't found any evidence of different blood types in non-mammals but this may also be due to the fact that all non-mammals' blood have much fewer red blood cells? Don't know yet.
Progress! I just read a chapter called "Transfusions in Exotic Species," by Heidi L. Hoefer, DVM in the book "Problems in Veterinary Medicine." Birds: Different species of birds - some, not all - also have different blood types and blood groupings ("blood grouping refers to the identification of the proteins and carbohydrates covering red blood cells"). Their red blood cells are more oval and larger than in mammals. She states: "...interspecies transfusions can be safe....However, sensitization to donor antigens can occur....Antibodies can develop as early as 7-10 days after a transfusion....Serial or multiple transfusions can cause fatal reactions." Ferrets: Sounds like they only have one blood type. "Transfusion reactions have not been reported to occur....The risk of transfusion complications appears to be minimal, even without crossmatching procedures." So now we know that birds also have different blood types, as well as mammals. But without any further studies about transfusions in other animals (fish, reptiles, amphibians) I doubt we'll never know anything further for quite some time.
Hi, Just a couple of questions relating to the original topic of this post: 1) If the problem is just a lack of tolerance, rather than existing antibodies, why is the response instant? In a primary antibody response, it takes up to 3 days for even IgM antibodies to start appearing in the blood; why is the reaction here an instant problem? 2) Given the fact that it's an antibody response (and to a polysaccharide antigen, and hence more capable of being T-independent), doesn't the burden of tolerance lie more on B-cells than T-cells, as would occur in the thymus?
The original poster wouldn't be able to answer those questions, because a) He no longer frequents sciforums b) He wouldn't understand the questions because he is uneducated.
************* M*W: I believe you mean "Tetralogy of Fallot." http://atoz.iqhealth.com/HealthAnswers/encyclopedia/HTMLfiles/63.html
