About Adolf Hitler, dogs and being a scary person

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by water, Sep 26, 2004.

  1. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    About Adolf Hitler, dogs and being a scary person

    I watched a documentary about dogs, and there was also some footage of Hitler and his German Sheperd dog.
    Nothing special -- a big guy and his dog, like so many other rulers, presidents etc., one would think.

    But no. Look closer: As Hitler approached the dog to pet him, the dog curled up, ears back, tail down. Hitler cuddled with the dog, while the dog was all reluctant. Only if a dog is afraid of a person does it react that way.
    Hitler's dog was afraid of Hitler.

    I do not wish to make hasty conclusions, but one thing is sure: the way someone treats one's own animals and the way one's animals behave around one, does say a lot about that person.
    And Hitler must have been a scary person if his own dog was afraid of him.
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  3. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Poor old Blondi...

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    Hitler supposedly flew into rages in the event of things not going his way, and these are reported to have gotten steadily worse as World War 2 ground on, and Germany began to suffer the consequences of his foolish decisions.
    Shouting and ranting on at some length were alleged to be characteristic of Uncle Adolf's flareups.

    It's probable that the dog was about during some of these, and perhaps even got smacked around a bit at some point.
    In any event, I'm sure you've noticed yourself how a dog will respond to a person's emotional state, and the tone of one's voice rather than the words one is speaking... after a certain amount of being "subjected to" Hitler's nut-case personality, I'm sure the poor pooch lived in a sort of state of fear due to not knowing if the Crazy Austrian Housepainter was going to scream bloody murder at it or give it a cuddling as per the film clip.

    If I recall correctly, the unfortunate animal even ended up serving as a "test subject" for the cyanide capsules Hitler planned on crunching to end his own life because Hitler was afraid SS chief Heinrich Himmler had provided bogus pills for the job...

    "However, Hitler was mistrustful of the poison capsules that had been supplied by SS Chief Himmler (whom he now saw as a traitor), so he ordered his personal doctor Werner Hasse to try one of the capsules out on Blondi."
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  5. Logically Unsound wwaassuupp and so on Registered Senior Member

    ouch. ending up as hitlers bitch.
    and if himmeler was a traitor, why exactly would he give him bogus pills? give him real ones, and hope he pops it (sorry).
    he was one crazy mo' fo'.
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  7. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    Well in this case giving him the bogus one would work so Hitler could waste time thinking death is imminent and be risked getting captured.

    Or some other more harmful, albeit one that doesn't kill, chemical could have been given to him.

    When munching on cyanide capsules is your only way out and you're looking forward to it, even making sure they are real then rational thought and prudence have escaped your mind.
  8. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

    I was recently told that Hitler was mentally sick and Lenin was retarded (as in, medical abnormalities, not slang). It follows, that there were people behind Hitler that brought him up to power.
  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Touch any dog from that position and it'll cringe back a bit, no matter how you treat it.
    Killing the dog was hardly a cruel thing to do. It would have likely starved or been shot in post-war Berlin, and cyanide would be a relatively easy death.

    For that matter, Hitler was a rather quiet, almost shy man with his intimates - or who passed for intimates for a man in his place - there are no accounts of him being an abusive man.

    Your blind acceptance of what other people tell you does not testify well to your own mental capacity. Lenin was a decently talented writer, a gifted law student and an able organizer. None of these things would have been possible for a retard. Hitler was possibly borderline, but obviously quite functional.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2004
  10. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Oh, look at that dog's ears and posture! He is so afraid!

    I have seen dogs being so afraid of their owners -- and those people had a bad temper and a heavy hand.

    It is amazing: People can fool us, but once they are around their animals, esp. dogs, and we see the dog's reaction, that nice mask that they are wearing proves to be just that, a mask, and a cruel person behind it.
  11. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    That's a submissive gesture, not necessarrily afraid.
    It could mean he beats it, but not definately.
    I'm sure hitler might have been a stern owner, dogs pick up on the alpha streak in people and other dogs, and will weasle around submissively in their presence even if they've never had physical harm done to them by that person or dog.
    Its hard, the dog would act particularly submissive if it was beaten, so that might be the case, but I know dogs that act that way around owners who merely have a stern voice. To a dog there isn't much of a difference between being hit and being "punched in the face" with a harsh "NO!".
    Hitler actually understood dogs, so even if he was harsh or strict it would have been at appropriate times and under control. I don't believe he was a crazy loose cannon who would take out his frustration on dogs. I could be wrong.
    What gives me the shits is people who abuse dogs inconsistently and at stupid times. Frankly I think most dogs would prefer to have an owner like hitler than some soccer mom who doesn't know shit about dogs and dresses them up in hats and sunglasses.
    Dogs love having a strong leader, it makes them feel secure. They really don't mind being disciplined by their owners as much as we as humans assume, they expect it. As long as its quick and to the point and not bizarrely cruel.
    That said, I never hit my dogs. Not because I think they would be disturbed by it but because I don't like hurting animals.
  12. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

    Another thing to consider is that Blondi was a trained German Shepard. Do you think that a well trained German Shepard is just going to be fawning all over Herr Hitler and licking him like a popsicle? Hitler didn't exactly spend a lot of time with his dog. He just liked to have it around when he wanted it to be and other times to be taken care of without his caring about it. If anyone was to blame for the attitude of the dog it would be his trainer. I seriously doubt Hitler spent a lot of time beating his dog.
  13. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    If the "abuse" was anything extreme the dog wouldn't be submitting it would be baring its teeth crazily and not letting hitler get anywhere near it. Dogs won't put up with ridiculous amounts of abuse, certainly not german shepherds.
    If the mistreatment was "hitleresque" (ie, fitting of what an overimagination would assume hitler to be like) the dog would be nuts and wouldn't submit in his presence because it would have learned that submitting doesn't work in stopping hitler from harming it.
    I'm sure he wasn't particularly soft on his dog like people are now, letting it sleep in his bed under the swastika covers with its head on the pillow or anything like that, but no one treated dogs like that back then.
  14. Xev Registered Senior Member

    No not necessarily. It's possible that Hitler mistreated his dog, but you can't infer that just from the posture. Dogs are hierarchial animals, and even a well-treated dog will act submissive towards whoever it feels is alpha. It's just their nature.

    Besides that, not all breeds of dog like to be petted by someone strange to them. The German Shepherd (I used to have a purebred) wasn't bred for sociability, she was bred to be a messanger and sentry dog on the battlefield.

    So you cannot assume that Blondie is acting oddly for a dog. She is acting oddly for a Collie or a Labrador, a companion dog, but perfectly appropriately for a German Shepherd.

    The breed itself is closest to wolves of all our recognized dog breeds, being developed by an old German calvaryman from strains of native German sheepdogs and wolves. They can be incredibly loving, good dogs, but they are very aloof and don't warm quickly to strangers. Oh, they are wonderful, wonderful dogs!

    "I'm sure he wasn't particularly soft on his dog like people are now, letting it sleep in his bed under the swastika covers with its head on the pillow or anything like that, but no one treated dogs like that back then."

    Oh, but I was very soft with mine - I disciplined her of course, but she slept in my bed and sat on the couch while I did homework - and she was still like that. She didn't take to strangers at all, and with me she was always a little submissive. It's in their blood.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004
  15. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

    I haven't accepted it yet, it sits and gets digested. It'll probably wait till winter, when I get the time to research. Anyways, the argument was that... Uh, let me recall what was said to me... Small paranoia fits were in Lenin's family... I think his mother's brother was paranoid. It was also said that Lenin wrote way too many books in a short time, which wasn't considered a sign of good writing by the person who said it. I haven't read Lenin's stuff, can't testify. The person said that Lenin really wanted to take revenge for the death of his brother (god, the circumstances escape my memory) for his entire life and knowingly brought hell upon Russia. Lenin didn't even live in Russia before he started his revolution there.

    Hitler's mother wanted to have an abortion (I think, the two were discussed in the same conversation, I might be mixing things up), because his father was a drunk. And, later on, his mother regretted that she decided to keep the child (don't remember why she kept him), since the signs of some mental disfunction were obvious.

    (It's all rumour to me, really.)
  16. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

    Einstein's parents thought he was retarded, too.
  17. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Your friend is profoundly ignorent of Russian history.

    Lenin was a very intelligent man, he had some definite fascistic leanings but I respect him. Really the "hell" that he brought on Russia was Stalin's doing, and Lenin did not want Stalin to succeed him.

    Lenin did not "start" the revolution, it starts in January 1917 and Lenin does not even return from exile until April 1917.
    He did indeed live in Russia, but was in exile during the early revolution because of his work as an agitator.

    In every liklihood, the Russian revolution would have happened without Lenin. He gave it a character and a direction, but Russian socialists had been active since the 1860s and the Romanov dynasty was doomed by WW1 in any case.
  18. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    Yeah, I've never had a german shepherd, I've always had bullbreeds which are very friendly and outgoing with everyone.
    I saw that as a problem and so now have a neapolitan mastiff x american staffordshire terrier from working security lines.

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    He's already very wary of strangers, no where near as carefree and outgoing as other dogs I've had. But its not because he's been mistreated, its bred into him. He instinctually knows he exists to defend his family from evil humans.
    Like I said, I don't really know about german shepherds, buts its true if you are used to a certain kind of dog you can misread others.
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Right, or even a certain way of training a dog. Most people are used to house dogs - my father's karin terrier would probably walk up to a burgler and yap to be petted. That's what most expect.

    Now my shepherd, or the pitbull-shepherd mix I had for a while, would not have done that. Consequently it scared some people, especially when I lived a half-year in a predominantly black/hispanic neighborhood and would go out to walk this dog who looked just like a police dog, hehe.

    But the pitbull-shepherd had been apparently mistreated by his previous owner, yet he was quite more friendly than my purebred shepherd. Like you said, an outgoing dog.
  20. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    "Happy Time" at Rastenberg...

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    Say... I didn't mean Schicky broke out the riding crop and gave pupster a thrashing regularly, or whatnot...
    Just that, given his propensity for "tantrums" in the event of setbacks, misfortunes of war, or even obstacles during the rise of the NSDAP to power which involved bellowing at the top of his lungs, and lashing out at whomever was conveniently present, [Herman Göring didn't come to avoid OKH headquarters for nothing...] it might have been that the dog was reacting to this unpredictability.
    I suppose without some witness' account which I have no inclination to search for, it's impossible to know whether or not Blondi got a whuppin' for no reason when Addiekins was all upset about the latest breakthrough by the Soviet Shock Armies...

    I highly doubt the man was mentally retarded, though...
    Could a person of sub-moronic intelligence have orchestrated a political campaign which took a fringe political "party" of six disgruntled misfits from utter obscurity to control of a nation...?

    As for the supposedly "fake" cyanide capsules...
    On April 22, 1945, with the war just over 2 weeks from ending, Heinrich Himmler made an offer to surrender to the Americans & British. Upon hearing of this via BBC radio broadcast, Hitler declared Himmler a traitor to the Reich, and in typical fashion, then adopted an attitude of mistrust toward all things "Himmlerian".
    Since Himmler had supplied the cyanamide capsules to be used "in case of emergency", [heh...] they too were suspect.

  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    It is very unlikely that German shepherds have a statistically significant component of European wolf blood in their veins. Recent exhaustive DNA analysis provided some startling revelations.

    Wolves were domesticated only once, in what is now China, about 11,000BCE. This process was never repeated. All domestic dogs have the genetic markers of the wolf population that still lives in that region, not of any other populations of wolves. (It was a process of voluntary self-domestication, but see my many postings on other threads for a larger treatment of this topic.)

    Dogs and wolves are a single species. There are more differences between the DNA of a Pekinese and a mastiff (or between a Norwegian man and an Indonesian) than between the average mongrel and a wolf. The major difference between the two subspecies of Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris is behavioral -- one that has been selected through thirteen thousand years of voluntary and captive breeding.

    The earliest differentiated breeds, created when man mastered the art of animal husbandry around 8,000BCE, are an unexpected lot, including the Lhasa Apso, mastiff, Pekinese, saluki and Maltese. Livestock guard dogs, hunting dogs, and a whole lot of little pet dogs.

    Most of the dog breeds are far more recently developed, a vast percentage less than 200 years old.

    So it turns out that my Lhasa Apsos are more closely related to wolves than your German Shepherd. But I'll make sense of that in a moment.

    The behavior you are talking about is primarily a function of the alpha gene. In the dog population in aggregate, about one percent of individuals have it. It's much more prevalent in wolves, who run in smaller packs than feral dogs. It's not a trait that is desirable in most human-dog multi-species communities, so the alphas either chose not to live with humans in the first place, or were culled from the domestic pack.

    In a few cases it was desirable and it was selected. One is the Lhasa Apso, developed to guard Tibetan monasteries with little human oversight. You put a pack of Lhasas around your house and nobody gets through. Lhasas fight among themselves like alligators. We breed them and we're always treating wounds in our pack. Turn them loose and they scatter to the winds, rather than following a leader. They regard their humans as really nice roommates who buy all the food, not owners. We sell a lot of them because they appeal to cat people.

    Another is the pitbull, developed to fight other dogs. A hunting pack only functions smoothly if the authority of the leader is respected. If everyone is willing to fight for dominance, too much energy and blood is wasted. Few dogs can be trained to fight to the death. They must be both alphas.

    Most other breeds, even hunting dogs and herding dogs, but especially working dogs and pet dogs, were highly selected for beta personalities. They instinctively accept the authority of the human as pack leader, and don't fight too violently among themselves to decide who is number two.

    German shepherds were originally bred to herd livestock, as the name implies. The last thing you want is a dog with a tendency to fight, he's likely to take on the lead sheep or goat and kill it, as many gentlemen farmers have discovered to their chagrin when they put a spike collar on a random monster dog and tell it to watch the goats.

    It was only during Germany's dark days at the end of the nineteenth century and the first half of the twentieth, when German shepherd bloodlines were opened up for personalities that could be trained for tasks that no self-respecting farm dog would consider. This wasn't all bad, they became good rescue dogs, bomb sniffers, medical supply carriers, etc. The conquering armies recognized their value and took plenty of them home, making it one of the world's most popular breeds.

    Nowadays German shepherds are still used for guard duty, but it is not considered their primary occupation. They are still classified in the "herding dog" category in dog shows, meaning that a docile, beta personality is more likely to be respected than a wary or aggressive dog.

    The same fate has befallen other breeds. The rottweiler was originally developed in Roman times to pull carts in mountainous country where horses weren't appropriate. This was obviously an extremely docile, patient dog that would put up with considerable abuse without attacking another animal or a human.

    Anyway, the alpha gene is out there and has not been completely eliminated from the bloodlines of any breed. It's easy enough to select for in a species that can reproduce at one year old. Dogs that display alpha personalities have simply been bred for it, almost always without the need to violate the rules and introduce DNA from other breeds or from wolves -- the earliest breed of dog.
  22. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Lay off on the rhetoric. Hitler was Hitler, he wasn't a "crazed housepainter" or "schnicky" or whatever. You sound....silly.

    Fraggle Rocker:
    The German calvaryman mostly responsible for the breed crossbred with wolves to get it. Your objection on grounds of the dog's history is thus invalid.


    I don't have any way of personally testing the validity of their claims, but quite reputable breeders and books on the dogs will say this.

    Again, faulty logic. The wolf was reintroduced into the bloodline, or so most German Shepherd enthusiasts will tell you.

    Also, that's a faulty understanding of genetics. Simply because the wolf-dog was originally bred in an area, does not make the descendants (who have been extensively interbred) closer to wolves than the dogs in another area.

    Alpha behaviour may be genetically linked, but there is no indication that it is based on a single gene.

    Get ahold of yourself man, not everything is an exercise in idealism!

    Wrong in tendancy. The German Shepherd breed as it stands now was developed in specific response to military-type needs.

    It is indeed, regardless of what the AKC may say. The German Shepherd is used as a guard/companion dog. It is not used to herd sheep. We don't even...herd sheep nowadays.

    Rottweilers are not docile, patient dogs. They are third to pit-bulls and chow-chows in number of attacks against humans, and there are a number of breed-specific bills against them in the US.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2004
  23. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

    Silly good... Me like...

    Doubtless you realize that the term Crazy Austrian Housepainter was American period slang referring to Hitler's time spent in pre-WW1 Austria earning a living as [big surprise here] a painter... and that Schicky is derived from his alleged actual family name, Schicklegruber, which became another derogatory term for him used in Europe and America.
    I almost forgot my fave - and my thanks to you for reminding me - The Bohemian Corporal - coined by Prussian-descended officers Hitler eventually claimed were so worthless because of their "blue-blooded narrow-mindedness", or whatever.

    I made Addiekins up on account O' his cute li'l moo-stache

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