Abortion

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by JOEBIALEK, Jan 31, 2008.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    If I were to follow your warped sense of belief, a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy is also intentionally killing her "baby" when she has the embryo, as well as her fallopian tube, removed.

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  3. sandy Banned Banned

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    I'm not discussing that. This is a thread on "Abortion". Abortion is killing an innocent baby. Spin it any way you want. You know my view.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Why won't you discuss it? The "baby" is just as innocent in an ectopic pregnancy and deserves the chance to live as much as any other baby, right?

    Your view is that abortion of any kind is immoral and should be made illegal. Do you think women who have an ectopic pregnancy are "evil" for aborting their foetus?
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Bells, do you know if R84U6 works on ectopic pregnancy?

    If it does how many women each year wouldnt have to lose there falopian tubes.
     
  8. sandy Banned Banned

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    Because it's trolling/hijacking the topic of the thread. The topic is abortion--baby killing. My views have not changed.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    I don't think it would work on ectopic pregnancies. As far as I am aware, the RU486 works by inducing the uterus into menstruating. An ectopic pregnancy usually requires immediate surgery, otherwise it could rupture the fallopian tube causing severe damage and possible death to the mother. Either way, the woman will lose the fallopian tube in the majority of cases, unless caught very very early, but that is rare. As a result, the greater majority of women do end up losing their fallopian tube.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    JOEBIALEK:

    No. From memory, about 1/3 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage.

    Got any evidence at all for that?

    Adoption often does not guarantee a good life.

    Do you support the death penalty? It is amazing how many people who claim to be "pro-life" are "anti-life" at the same time when it comes to "criminals".

    Do you eat meat? It is amazing how many people who claim to be "pro-life" are "anti-life" at the same time when it comes to killing animals.

    Just checking if you are morally consistent.


    ABS:

    Has it occurred to you that no baby has a choice in its conception? It has no choice as to whether it comes into existence.

    The "child's" potential decision not to live was taken away before the issue of abortion came up.

    Really, though, it is nonsense to ascribe wants to a foetus. It is not conscious.


    sandy:

    Baby killing requires a baby. A foetus is not a baby.

    Life exists well before conception. Sperm and ova are alive, although most never come together to form a foetus.

    You're not really concerned about life, are you? You probably eat animal meat. You probably support the death penalty. You certainly at least eat vegetables. So, life isn't the real issue, is it?


    Lou Natic:

    At what point, in your opinion, is there a "baby"?

    You can judge whether a baby will be "white trash" in utero, can you?

    Amazing.

    So any killing is fine, as long as you approve of it? You obviously lack any moral compass other than your own self-interest.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    23,390
    And the removal of a foetus from a fallopian tube is abortion Sandy, and as a result, it does "kill the baby". If you are unable or unwilling to answer the question, just say so. It is a valid question in this topic. You have claimed that aborting a foetus under any circumstance is murder, do you view a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy to be a murderer when she 'aborts' her foetus?

    If you believe all forms of abortion is baby killing, why are you not able to answer a simple enough question?
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    How sad

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    I wonder if they have ever thought of using key hole surgury through the uterus, but maybe its the pregnancy its self that causes the damage. Its a terrible thing to have to put someone through. I know an 17 year old girl who thought she was going in to have her apendics removed but when she was under they found out that the pain was caused because the folopian tube had wraped itself around the overie. The overie was dead and she will probably lose the other one. What made it worse was a) she never knew thats what they had done b) the hospital had no womens health ward so she ended up in the meternity ward and c) she really wanted to have kids and there is only about a 1% chance of her EVER falling pregnant

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  13. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    What would things be like if Sandy got her way?

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/issues-action/global-inequality/abortion-ban-12990.htm

    Communist dictator knew how to get things done! What a glimpse into paradise!

    In case the religiously insane manage to take over, keep these handy ladies.

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  14. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    no you saying abortion is baby killing is hijacking and trolling
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    Well you can't really get it out without removing it. The fertilised egg implants itself into the fallopian tube. Sadly, the majority of women are not even aware of it until they begin to feel the pain. I've heard some women describe the pain as being worse than natural childbirth and passing a kidney stone. Having gone through both in the past, I never want to even imagine how painful it would be. If the woman is lucky, it is caught before it grows to the point where it becomes painful.

    It's a terrifying thought.
     
  16. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    Since the context is how wrong it is to kill them, I'd say as soon as they are an organism operating with intent to survive.
    As soon as they have nerve endings which make them recoil away from painful stimulus. This indicates they are actively avoiding death and wanting to live, and so I think a baby should be considered a baby from a murder standpoint at that moment.
    When we can determine they want to live.
    This is very early on.

    Any other disctintion is entirely superficial, based more on how comfortable we are killing the baby than the baby itself, it's capacity to suffer or it's desire to live.

    We can kill something that looks like a newborn marsupial, it's not far from a worm in appearance, big deal, don't want to inconvenience a woman over something that looks like that.
    But once it starts looking like a little person, that's getting a bit much. And forget about it once it is a tangible entity out in the air that can stare into our face and grab our finger.
    They're all arbitrary moments of significance, like I said based on how disturbing it is for us to think of them being impaled on the end of a wire hanger.
    Not how terrifying or painful it is for them to be on the hanger.
     
  17. sandy Banned Banned

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    The baby starts looking like a little person at 6 weeks. Have you seen the abortion pictures? They're graphic but VERY accurate. Warning: graphic....

    http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html
     
  18. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    those don't look like people to me
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Lou Natic:

    Ok, fine.

    So, now you've looked at half of the equation. You've decided when the baby has interests worth protecting.

    Now, what about the other side of the equation? Does the mother ever have interests that need to be taken into account in making a decision for or against an abortion? And whose decision should it be: hers or the state's (perhaps different for different circumstances)?
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    here is an idea instead of abortions we create plants that nurture the babies and than when they are just right we kill them harvest their meat and give it to places like africa to solve world hunger there 2 problems solved
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    This is what a 6 week old "baby" looks like:

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    http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6634&page=8#

    The images you Sandy are nothing but trumped up and look decidedly fake to me, all with the single purpose of getting an emotional response. I doubt you would get the same response if you actually posted images of what embryo's actually look like in those early stages. At 6 weeks, its heartbeat might, and it's a big might, be able to be detected through an ultrasound. Otherwise it literally just looks like an empty dark splotch on the ultrasound.

    Well Sandy, what of those who get abortions when they have an ectopic pregnancy? Still can't answer that question? You do realise that women can go up to 8+ weeks with an ectopic pregnancy before having the foetus removed. Are these women murderers as well?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    More anti-abortion dishonesty

    What if the mother is a smoker? A heavy drinker? A cocaine or heroin user?

    Consider your exchange with Bells:

    Now, the premise justifying the anti-abortion argument is the assertion that life begins at conception, and therefore the organism is endowed with certain, inalienable rights, including primarily the right to life.

    Yet you refuse to discuss the extended implications of what this means? Is it because the issue becomes too complicated for you to figure out? Or maybe you are capable of seeing how complicated the situation becomes, and are unwilling to have that discussion because you don't like what it suggests?

    Would you be willing to collect your own menses for monthly review by a qualified healthcare professional? Sign, on a regular basis, documents for the public record under penalty of perjury declaring that you have had no sexual contact between certain dates?

    What kind of taxes would you be willing to pay to establish the relevant bureaucracy and enforce laws based on the premise that life, with its inalienable rights, begins at conception?
     
  23. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    as the great george carlin said they are not pro-life they are anti-woman
     

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