Abortion

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by JOEBIALEK, Jan 31, 2008.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Orleander as long as the choice to have the baby falls on the women then so should the conciquences. If a father CHOSES to be involved and a women says to bad i dont want to have it well thats to bad under the law and so is a woman saying i know you DONT want it but your going to pay for it

    Nope. Equal choice


    Just for those who think im an apsolute asshole by now im really not, been in a long term relationship for over 5 years now and if my partner fell pregnant we would deal with it as a couple
     
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  3. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Asgard,

    I'm with you on this one. If one party has all the choice, they should bear all the responsibility. Seems fair to me.
     
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    the guy had a choice to slip on a jimmy if he didn't well fuck him
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    if she didnt tell him to then fuck her, its a two way street mate
     
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    its not a 2 way street saying that implies equal choice which is true and equal consequences which is not true. it more like a road with 8 lanes with 7 lanes going one way (female consequences) and one lane the other (male consequences)
     
  9. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    the woman has to tell the guy to wear a condom? :bugeye: Is she his Mom and he needs to be told? He should always wear one.

    And being in a 5 yr relationship doesn't mean a person isn't an asshole. :shrug: It just means that person has found one person on the planet to put up with them.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    (Insert title here)

    I don't know where to start on that one.

    And that's the great thing about assholes. We all have one, and we all are one. My apologies, of course, to those who have and are colostomy bags.

    While an earlier consideration of sexism and misogyny as relates to the topic was set aside when my net access temporarily collapsed, I do want to counterpoint it in advance, in large part because you have put a context before me that suggests the need. Er ... or at least the opportunity.

    Many men, myself included, and most likely Asguard, local friends of mine and longtime mates spread across the states, definitely my father and brother, some guys I used to work with, and certainly this moron named Dan who, for some reason, my friend Alison continues to put up with, receive a tremendous amount of information about how to regard women from women. There are two complications, of course, that we cannot discount. First, obviously, are social cycles, while the second is no less obvious but even harder to identify specifically, and that is confusion, misinterpretation, or, since I believe the burden of communication is on the broadcasting/transmitting party, poor explanations.

    Those two complications noted, though, the reality is that much of what a man does to piss off a woman, he learns from other women. A superficial example might be the notion of opening a door for a woman. I've learned, after years of conflict, to simply open doors for just about anybody. That way, I don't have to look at a woman and say, "What? I didn't want to insult your capability." And I don't have to suffer the ceaseless rage of a halfwit stripper with a feminist streak who would get pissed about little things like that. Best answer I could find was to find the best way to avoid either extreme.

    A more complex example, of course, would be abortion. A mother can be as genuinely feminist as can be, and she'll still say nasty things about her son's boyfriend's womanhood. My mother, who has taken the long road to feminism, said things about my daughter's mother that I generally wouldn't have said to her. Part of it, of course, is that despite all I badmouth my former partner, there are certain things I won't say, and there are certain things I won't say in certain company. And mothers are just one example. If I had called her one day and said, "Just so you know, in case sometime I let it slip out, she had an abortion yesterday," my mother would have done just fine with that. When I finally called her and told her she was to be a grandmother, she was horrified. Truth told, we'd all hoped that her first grandchild would come from a better woman, but life goes on. None of what's happened since has changed anyone's opinion of my former partner for the better ... well, okay, I take that back. One of my friends, at least, despises her less. But we leave the frustration that is her out of it as much as possible. I mean, nobody pretends I'm any sort of prize, but ... but I digress.

    The point being that nothing I learned from one girlfriend ever applied to the next, except maybe a lucky streak of three or four women who never complained about my cunninlinguistics. But, really, the little things? If I've become cynical about women in sexual relationships, it's no more than the cynicism I show other people. I hear from Christians about Christians. I hear from women about women. Well, you can actually lose a woman by being nice to her. Seriously. I have lost a girlfriend before because I didn't treat her enough like a whore. (What the f@ck!)

    But not every guy on the planet is either so unfortunate or cynical as I am. Some of them really do think their girlfriends and wives are being truthful and accurate when they explain what "women" think and what "women" like. And it gets them in trouble, and if they're smart they figure it out eventually. If not, they run a high risk of becoming open misogynists who write off everything to the fact that women have vaginas.

    Between their mothers and their histories, heterosexual men have a lot to figure out. My former partner said at least once that it would have been okay if I had just disappeared. In the first place, that wasn't going to happen. My first known blood relative on the planet, and I'm going to disappear? And, to the other, I didn't trust her to hold to it. Nor, we should note, would I have pursued that in writing. I would imagine some guys might, but if e'er there is a confession of ice-cold spiritual vacuity, that would be it. To the other, I've heard some tough talk over time. She doesn't need him. She doesn't want him. He can f@ck right off into the sunset. They're better off without him. And I've heard bravado, too. She wouldn't want him around. She wouldn't need him. He would only complicate things. And some of these women had boyfriends or lovers who were present at the time. Can we blame them if they thought, "Awesome, dude. I'm in the f@cking clear!"

    Maybe. But these are the sharper examples, ranging toward the extreme. It is not impossible that a man could become accustomed to a specific mentality among the women he dates. And it would be nearly impossible to presume that he understands the nuances of that outlook. After all, women are human too, and communicate their perspectives and intentions just as poorly as the rest of us.

    Not every bad idea men have about women comes from the locker room, or the perverts' corner at the bar. Some of it comes from their mothers. Some of it comes from their lovers. Some of it comes from co-workers, chicks at the bar, women in the Bible study circle. Their wives' sisters and friends, their mothers-in-law.

    And over time, ideas tend to firm up, become less flexible, harder to uproot. What grows from diverse ideological seeds can be unpredictable and, ultimately, mysterious.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Get off of her, go home, and get off

    An interesting moment in contrasts:

    Anti-abortion: "If you don't wan't a baby don't spread your legs." (Star-gazer, #1739457/293)​

    We've encountered this one in a few forms throughout the topic. This is just one of the latest misogynistic attacks against abortion. To illustrate the misogyny, we need only glance over at a skirmish taking place between pro-choice:

    Pro-choice: "If a father CHOSES to be involved and a women says to bad i dont want to have it well thats to bad under the law and so is a woman saying i know you DONT want it but your going to pay for it." (Asguard, #1739810/301)​

    Now, the thing is that I have much respect for Asguard. This is just one of our differences of opinion, and the discussion serves well to highlight a problem about the whole abortion debate. Indeed, Asguard is not alone in this; his point finds an echo among prevalent accused misogynists: "If one party has all the choice," notes Madanthonywayne, "they should bear all the responsibility." (#1739836/302)

    Now, to recall some dialogue from earlier in the discussion. The issue started with a discussion of what kind of records a woman ought to keep of who she's sleeping with, an extension of an exchange regarding misogyny and the anti-abortion argument.

    Tiassa: Are you able to remember your pre-married life? Now, maybe you were a statistical aberration who didn't hit on lots of women, but I think one of the things that needs to be addressed is whether or not men should be obliged to carry around signed affidavits attesting that they will support any child they help conceive. They could give them to any woman they intend to hit on. (#173557/214)

    Madanthonywayne: Sure I remember my pre-married life. Do I remember every woman I ever hit on? Hell no. But I sure as hell remember every woman I've slept with. Probably even the ones I only got to 3rd base with. And why would an affidavit be needed? All that's needed is a blood test, and a list of who to test. (#1735589/218)

    Tiassa: Just to clear things up. You're so intent on blaming the woman for something that requires two people's genetic material that I'm trying to remind you of the man's responsibility. (#1735610/226)​

    Indeed, in #214, the next paragraph began, "I mean, I do find something perverse about the notion that, while so many men pursue sexual intercourse, begging and bribing and even lying to women in order to achieve their goal, the anti-abortion argument should be so fixated on women 'getting around'.

    But I think we've come around to see the reason for such a strange idea as affidavits attesting to a man's intention. After all, for all we hear about how women need to close their legs, its about time the men had their own reminder:

    If you do not wish to take the chance, and if you resent the trust you must give your female lover, don't get on in the first place.

    Say what you will about women opening their legs. If it's such a problem, perhaps men shouldn't be asking so damned often.

    But if you are feeling sinister,
    Go off and see a minister;
    Chances are you'll probably feel better
    If you stayed and played with yourself.


    (Belle & Sebastian)

    • • •​

    As a final note, specifically for Asguard:

    It sounds like you're in a pretty good place, then. But remember that she can, unless local laws provide for such a circumstance, rescind at any time, and without telling you, any sense of commitment to dealing with such a circumstance as a couple. Is it worth getting it in writing? I say no, but that's just me. One of my favorite songs when I was a kid was Jackson Browne's "Lawyers in Love", and strangely, the words "prenuptial agreement" don't appear anywhere in the lyrics.
    ______________________

    Notes:

    ° the anti-abortion argument should be so fixated on women 'getting around' — A reference to #1735552/205. That post is part of an exchange involving #1733204/17, 1733214/19, 1733246/21, 1733631/34, 1733813/44, 1733852/47, 1733888/50, 1733977/51, 1733989/52, 1733994/53, 1733998/54 (and 1734001/55), 1734002/56, 1734011/58, 1734027/59 (see also 1734295/79 when one aspect of the discussion dead-ends), 1734034/60, 1734251/78, 1734330/81, 1734345/83, 1734364/88, 1734399/89, 1734419/90, 1734468/92, 1734557/97, 1734603/98, 1734620/100, 1735205/158, 1735214/161, 1735240/164, 1735356/172, and 1735531/197, at least. There are only a couple of weak points in that chain, but this issue has been brewing pretty much for the duration. It's actually kind of fascinating. I worked backwards to get those post numbers, so I'm sure there are other posts I've missed, but I wasn't expecting to go from #226 back to page one.
     
  12. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    That was one of my favorite songs, too. In fact, I just checked my Ipod. I've got Lawyers in Love and Somebody's Baby. I'm sure I've got more on vinyl out in the garage. Lawyers in Love always struck me as delighfully absurd:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    God sends his spaceships to America, the beautiful
    They land at six o'clock and there we are, the dutiful
    Eating from TV trays, tuned into to Happy Days
    Waiting for World War III while Jesus slaves
    To the mating calls of lawyers in love

    Last night I watched the news from Washington, the capitol
    The Russians escaped while we weren't watching them, like Russians do
    Now we've got all this room, we've even got the moon
    And I hear the U.S.S.R. will be open soon
    As vacation land for lawyers in love​

    A simultaneous critique and celebration of American culture. No matter what happens, no matter how fantastic or absurd (the entire population of the USSR disappearing), we'll take it in stride and turn it into a chance to make money. Then we'll go on with our mundane lives.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2008
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Are you calling me a statistical aberration? Geeze, I grew up in the 1960s! And I felt like I was having a really good time. I only had sex with eleven women and I can still name them. Most of them I could probably find.

    I even found an excuse to keep in touch with each one of them for several months after our last tryst, to make sure that I hadn't been tricked into fatherhood. At least until 1974, when I got tired of worrying about it and had a vasectomy.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Why would she need to 'tell' him to wear a condom?

    You're right. It is a two way street. Therefore, he should be equally responsible in regards to methods of contraception used. Even if she is on the pill, he should still do his bit and wear a condom. Pills do at times fail to work and is not a 100% guarantee of protection. So unless the man has no functioning braincells, he should know himself to wear a condom without being told to do so by the woman he is about to have sex with.
     
  15. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    I agree 100%.
     
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa, dont worry about me

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    nither of us wants kids for at least 2 years (i need to finish my degree and be in work before we concider that), we made that decision as a couple for various reasons mostly finantial. Apart from that there there is always a choice if your views dont match, you can walk away. Fortunatly under law in Australia men are not just concidered cash cows. The law regonises the rights of the father and equal access is the defult rather than the old "kid goes with mum"


    The reason i know this would be a joint decison is because we have had to concider it already. Had a nasty incident with a broken condom before she was on the pill so we have gone through the morning after pill thing and the "what will we do, we are WAY to young, and without the resorces to care for a child" debate. We are working on the same page. Your right if in the future when we DO want kids she could turn around and be a bitch and abort it to hurt me. Of corse at THAT point i would walk away from the relationship, which is all the law alows. Im actually NOT the sort of person who would just walk away, but if i surport a womans right to chose to have the child or not as SHE sees fit, I also have to surport the right of a man to walk away if he doesnt agree with that choice. As I said under the doctiren of Autonomy each party has a right to make there own choice. I can also see times when with the increase of women dating younger men, an 18 year old boy\man who gets suduced by a 30 year old and she gets pregnant. There is a VERY high chance that he wouldnt want kids and she may. That is there choices to make either as a couple or independently as THEY see fit. I do NOT see that the law should force that choice for one side or the other. Thats what comes with equal rights. If those choices dont match because she doesnt want the kid and he does thats to bad, so sad and the same should aplie to the other side as well (if it doesnt already, never actually herd of a case here when someone has been tracked down from a one night stand to pay child surport)

    This is what equal rights MEAN
     
  17. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Umm im sorry but have nither of you herd of a latecx alergy?????????
     
  18. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    How common is that really. there are alternatives to latex.

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  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    I should probably show you all an example of WHY i feel no symathy for women who dont say "if its not on, its not on" or whatever.

    My partner has this friend who has in the last year had 4 partners i know of, In the 3 years i have known her i have watched her cry rape (and been surported 100% by myself even though my partner was highly sceptical of it) and then turn around and get with the guy. She has had BF after BF (and i might add she cheated on most of them which drops my empathy for her to almost zero) and i have spent 3 years trying to teach her BASIC sex ED (like the fact that the "withdrawal method doesnt work"). Inspite of ALL of that she is STILL making the choice to not use protection or ask her partner to use it. She thinks she is pregnant vertually every month and im not sure that she doesnt WANT to get pregant (she is 16 BTW). Should i feel sorry for her if she DOES get pregnant?????? HELL no im not, my sympathy will go to the poor guy who she eventually DOES trick into getting her pregnant

    I have also herd stories MORE than once of women using condoms THEY punched to DELIBRATLY get pregnant for various reasons including forcing there partners to stay with them when they want to leave

    I have to wonder why you people have so little respect for women that you think they are always submissive partners in all this?? Thats insulting to my partner, my sisters and Every other women on the planet. Your honestly expecting me to belive that women have so little control over themselves that they cant say "no i wont have sex with you untill you put a condom on"????????????
     
  20. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    You honestly expect us to believe that a man should have no responsibility if the women doesnt tell him to put a condom on. Are you suggesting that all men are idiots who dont have the capacity to do even the most simple tasks?
     
  21. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    No, im wondering why you 3 are suggesting its ONLY the mans responcabilit. I thought sex was surposed to be CONCENTUAL, and there for so are the desions that come out of it. That goes for what kind of protection to use, what should be done if the woman falls pregnant ect.

    I really dont care if you are a guy OR a girl but say you ARE a girl. Your geting ready to go to bed and the guy says "oh dont worry about the condom honey, i will just pull out"

    What is YOUR responce?
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    As a woman, I feel insulted to think that a man has the expectation of being ordered to wear a condom. Are you saying that all men are that stupid and need to be ordered, as though they were little children, to wear protection? You don't think a man should be responsible for his own sperm?

    You have basically placed ALL responsibility on the woman, while absolving the man completely. It is his responsibility to wear the condom. He should not have to be ordered to do so. In it being a 'two way street', he shares equal responsibility in issues of contraception. You say that women are 'submissive' in not ordering him to wear a condom, but then have the audacity to say that if she does not tell him to and she falls pregnant and he does not want a child, then she should bear the full responsibility of it? You don't think that is submissive?
     
  23. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    If its no, good for you. If its okay, and you end up pregnant both parties atre equally responsible because......survey says....it takes two to tango.

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