A true statesman:

Discussion in 'World Events' started by paddoboy, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Nelson Mandela dead: World mourns loss of 'Madiba'
    Chicago Tribune ‎- 7 minutes ago
    South African anti-apartheid hero Nelson Mandela died at home at the age of 95 on Thursday after months fighting a lung infection,

    A Mandella quote:
    After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended."
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  3. elusive Registered Member

    In an interview for the documentary, Mandela (1996), Nelson said, “Death is something inevitable. When a man has done what he considers to be his duty to his people and his country, he can rest in peace. I believe I have made that effort and that is, therefore, why I will sleep for the eternity.” Nelson truly committed himself to making the world a better place, and he succeeded.
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  5. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

    A Dallas hotel honors his passing with the South African flag:

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  7. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    His influence was felt FAR outside SA and will truly be missed!
  8. penkalo Registered Member

    RIP Mandela
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    From son of a tribal leader, goat herder to one of the greatest leaders and humanitarians in human history. There have been 100 billion humans since the dawn of man, out of all those billions there is probably less then a dozen that can compare the Mandela! Gandhi certainly but that all I can think of! I don't think there is anyone presently alive that comparable, at least not anyone who has yet accomplished as much.
  10. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    A true giant of our time, he'll be sorely missed. RIP Madiba.
  11. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    He turned the normal way of doing things on its head.
    He expected the best from people, and got it.
    One of the greatest figures to have lived? Undoubtedly.
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Have any of you people actually READ any history on Nelson Mandela?

    Does a "Great Statesman" purposely murder women and children - over and over and over?
    Does a "Great Statesman" ignore the countries deep socioeconomic problems and, instead of pouring resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid, blow out the budget on wasteful graft and military spending? (plenty of gift-giving and nepotism)
    Does a "Great Statesman" fall for a sociopath like his ex-wife Winnie Mandela who preferred a method of murdering people called “necklacing.” This is where a gasoline-filled tire is placed around the neck of a victim and set ablaze. A famous saying of her's is: “With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country” (around 3,000 were tortured by this sociopath).

    I'm seriously shocked. What? The TV tells you something and *poof* your common sense and decency go right out the window?
    He set bombs off in places where he knew he'd kill children. This is NOT the actions of a STATESMAN but of a murderer.

    Amnesty International certainly didn't consider him a "Statesman" - they even refused to take Nelson Mandela's case stating: “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.” Nelson Mandela plead guilty to 156 acts of public violent bombing campaigns which planted bombs in public places; including the Johannesburg railway station killing many women and children. As a matter of fact, killing INNOCENT children was more than acceptable means of change for Mandela. Mandela even refused to renounce violence to be released. And his idiotic Communist ideology turned to National Corporatism and he left the economy in shambles.

    Yes, apartheid was evil and hideous.
    Venerating a man who deliberately set bombs in places where he KNEW many of those who would be murdered where innocent children with their mothers is sickening is evil and is hideous.

    So, I'd like to hear what this 'Great Statesman' did that was so great he had to murder innocent children to accomplish it. What exactly was worth the lives of purposing killing children in a terror campaign that couldn't have been accomplished without purposely killing children? No other way was possible? ONLY murdering children could accomplish the end of apartheid? I'm wondering - is that what Gandhi did in India? Murdered children?

    A GREAT PERSON does not resort to violence against innocent children.
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    A perfectly fitting ending

    See the man on the speakers left (this lying douche also 'signed' for Obama in between funeral selfies - good thing we have the NSA keeping an eye on things for us)?

    He was 100% FAKING for 4 hours. Just standing up there moving his hands around, emotionless (sign requires facial expressions - particularly during the poem reading) and there hs is up there bullshitting the entire world (One of his 'signs' was 'rocking horse' - which was not used in the sentence he was supposedly 'signing').

    I find this to be a perfectly fitting ending.

  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Wow Michael can you cite those claims? Can you cite that he murdered women and children, the he married a women and while he was in prison became a psychotic terrorist and then latter divorced her? Can you cite the he upheld nepotism and the like?
  15. Gage Registered Senior Member

    What books have you read on Nelson Mandela Michael?
  16. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    I'd like to see what evidence you have personally connecting Mandela with the crimes of which you're accusing him, as well as his personal involvement in the activities of the wife he divorced. I wouldn't personally pretend the man was perfect, and it doesn't seem many people really do, but at some point you can either take up arms to defend yourself or consign yourself and your people to disappear from history. Much of my family having originated from South Africa, I'm quite confident that the fascist pro-Nazi Apartheid regime had no intention whatsoever of bowing to nonviolent resistance and international silence. Would you say the American Civil War was an unjust means of accomplishing the ends it achieved, that the Yankees had the option of negotiating human rights and territorial sovereignty with rational nonviolent Confederates?

    There were plenty of white South Africans who joined Mandela's struggle and did far more than merely shout slogans, vote for left-wing politicians or boycott goods. At times these people even resorted to violence, I have relatives who were personally involved in at least one famous incident, but Mandela and his ANC are the ones who get blamed for everything. You want to paint this battle as communism vs democracy when that simply wasn't the reality of the time, it was egalitarians vs fascists. Don't get me wrong, South Africa has loads of serious problems, and from the looks of it the current generation of ANC leaders is almost as corrupt and incompetent as the regimes in neighbouring countries. That's why Prime Minister Jacob Zuma got booed by the very people who once supported him, at Mandela's own funeral, for trying to hijack a great man's struggle and use it to justify his own embezzlement, nepotism and general mismanagement. Mandela had a huge impact on the world but he's only one guy, couldn't have achieved much even with 10 good men to support him let alone millions, so let's be very careful about the things of which we might accuse his person.
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I didn't say Mandela was perfect anything - I said he was not a 'Great Statesman'. Was he a deep thinker? Where are his Historic treaties? He seems to have been suckered into the Communist propaganda of his time and if he had his way back in the 1960s, then South Africa would have become another Communist crap-hole with him at the helm as Dear Leader.

    Nelson Mandela was a member of our CC at the time of his arrest - SACP
    Given he was more than happy to use violence against innocent women and children to achieve his goals - just how do you think South Africa would have turned out had his Communist Party taken over with him as Dear Leader?

    And then when he did get into power, his administration was plagued with corruption, his ex-wife was a total sociopath, and he wasted billions building up the military on the back of graft and nepotism instead of pouring what little resources there were into rectifying apartheid. Did he turn the economy around? Nope. Was he more than happy to rub shoulders with African Dictators? Yup. He openly supported Fidel Castros, Robert Mugabes, admired communist China, the Gadhaffis in Libya and Saddam Hussein. Is THIS a "Great Statesman"?

    Come on!

    The African National Congress he led, purposely chose to use violence against innocent people - knowing that innocent children would be some of the targets. This isn't the actions of a "Great Statesman". Did Abraham Lincoln indiscriminately target women and children? I don't recall that being part of Civil War (not that I see Lincoln in any shining light either - given the war wasn't about 'ending Slavery').

    I understand this. I'm not painting this as Communist -vs- Democracy other than to say Communist fits his MO. He was a Communist and it's evident that had he managed to somehow takeover as Dear Leader in the 1960s - he'd have went down in History as another African despot. A look at the mess SA is in now shows the legacy of violence. So, my point is he was not a Great Statesman and if anything he was another small minded little individual, no different than Bush Jr., Obama, and all the other pea-brains who think War is Peace. It's not. And we can see the fruits of that ideology today in the nepotistic crap-hole SA is as it's being run into the ground by another despotic legacy demagogue.

    These people are PEOPLE. They are not idols for Christ's sake. They are not Gods. Get over the alpha-monkey worship.
    When a person is willing to place bombs where they full-well know children are going to be murdered - they should be scorned, not praised. That is the mentality of a sociopath.
    Someone to be despised. Not a Great person. A Great Person goes out of his way NOT to harm innocent people - namely children. Children who have no say in their environment, they have no say in why things are the way they are.

    The history rewrite and fawning is enough to a make a person puke. Of course, given our own sociopathic "Leaders"/'Civil Servants' and the way the general public fawn all over them whenever there's a killing field (even through they themselves are many hundreds or thousands of miles away safely choking on a pretzel).

    - Amnesty International certainly didn't consider him a "Statesman" - they even refused to take Nelson Mandela's case stating: “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”
    - Nelson Mandela plead guilty to 156 acts of public violent bombing campaigns which planted bombs in public places; including the Johannesburg railway station killing many women and children.
    - He also refused to renounce violence.
    - The fact he picked a sociopath for a wife is simply more evidence of his lack of personal insight and ability - or he just didn't mind marrying a sociopath. Either way, it shows poor judgement.

    History would have and did see apartheid was ended. He didn't end it - We did. We who think race is a defunct term. We who find apartheid sickening. We ended it - good people, people who abhor violence, who were and are sickened by apartheid mentality. The current of history finally turned against South Africa and apartheid ended. Let's hope it continues to sweep away the violence.
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    A great statesman transcends his early violent tactics (against outright massacres of blacks), and unites a nation through non-violence and reconciliation.
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    What do you mean 'transcends'? Mandela never renounced violence against innocent people. As a matter of fact, on Oprah he said his violence was a defense. This is not true. Purposely placing bombs in public areas where you WANTED to kill women and children is NOT defense. Defense is being attacked and defending yourself. Those children never did anything - they were innocent. A great 'Statesman' would never exist because a great person is moral, and no one with an ounce of morality would want to lead the State. If there where ever a great Statesman it would be one who reviled his role as head of the State and left it as quickly as possible.

    If Mandela was a good person, he'd have personally apologized to the mothers of the dead children he murdered? Given he was never once tortured while in prison, was fed well, exercised regularly and had plenty of books to read - I'm absolutely sure that ANY of the mothers of children who were murdered would have traded places with him in an instant if it meant their children were returned to them safe and not horribly killed.

    On top of that - has he ever renounced the title "Father of the Nation"? Given this sets a a really bad precedent. It's another idiotic euphemism that teaches people to think incorrectly about the role of the State and the person who happens to be the bureaucrat in charge of making a mess of everything. It's why we end up with Kings and Queens. Emperors and Dictators. And War. A 'well read' man would immediately see this and work hard to explain why he was NOT the father of the nation and the limited role he had in actually bringing about any semblance of prosperity to the people. He'd also have renounced violence, apologized and asked for forgiveness and not wasted what little was left of the economic capital on useless military toys.

    Had he set those bombs in the USA, he'd have been reviled by the public and sentenced to death.
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member


    It takes all kinds.......
    Your usual "F$#@ you, , I'm alright Jack" right wing rants are certainly seen by the vast majority, black and white for the garbage it is.

    He was the prominent figure in finally bringing down an evil regime.....Yes, a statesman he was and is, and will be recorded as such.
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Mandela would go down in History along with Ghandi as the two greatest statesman of the 20th century........
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    I would like to ask Michael what orginisations he belongs to....
    Now that would be Interesting.
    It's worth noting that Australia's ex Labor PM Bob Hawke, was as far as I am aware, the first leader of any country to take action against the evil regime that once ruled South Africa.
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Yes you are, MOST CERTAINLY!

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