In the 18 Feb 2005 issue of the journal Science, there is a published study published with the title, Learned Predictions of Error Likelihood in the Anterior Cingulate Cortex (Brown and Braver, 2005). They seem to suggest several things, 1) a "general error-likelihood theory" of anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) function based on reinforcement learning, of which conflict and error detection are special cases; 2) "the benefits of tightly integrating neuroimaging studies with computational modeling, because the two methods together provide a strong basis for hypothesis generation and theory testing regarding the neural mechanisms of cognition." I've read some buzz in other places (Science Blog, 2005) that this research supports contentions that the indigenous peoples of islands affected by the recent tsunami were able to survive because they had some "sixth sense" of the events about to unfold. It seems more likely that the explanation for their survival was cultural/anthropological than cognitive. After all, the type of study that Brown and Braver conducted would have suggested that the tribesmen had a set of tsunamis to learn from, which in turn would suggest that this learning could be passed on as some sort of meme. Brown and Braver don't mention the indigenous peoples' responses to the tsunami, nor do they mention the term "sixth sense." It also seems like what's being described is more of a process than a sense. Data arrives from the 5 primary senses (and perhaps from other "senses" such as motion, air pressure, weight, etc.) and is processed in the ACC and in turn the brain exerts cognitive control over behavior. I'm wonder what the thoughts of others are on this sort of cognitive learning, memes, cultural norms as they can effect decisions to act on events, etc. My position on the "sixth sense" in its paranormal context is that it really doesn't exist. As a cognitive process that interprets data and offers decisions or "feelings" for the individual to act on, I think it definately exists. This would certainly explain the types of "premonition" and supernormal "powers" that those in the Parapsychology sub-forum like to discuss. I think people get "premonitions" all the time, but are not recognized because they either 1) don't act on them and subsequently don't see the results of their actions, or 2) the "premonition" isn't accompanied by the sub-consciously anticipated event. Unrecognized 'premonitions' are naturally not considered part of the data set of the paranormal believer, since they only recognize those that coincide with a subconsciously predicted event. Thus, the proponent of paranormal "powers" sees only the relatively few positive correlations and misses entirely the, possibly, large number of negative correlations. References: Brown, J., Braver, T. (2005) Learned Predictions of Error Likelihood in the Anterior Cingulate Cortex Science, 307:5712, 1118-1121 Science Blog (2005) Brain study points to 'sixth sense'
I have this weird idea It's not a weird idea at all. It's just a "safe" philosophical interpretation of your reality, because it gives you the hope that everything is eventually understandable. Of course, you have no more proof for this statement than I have for the pink elephant standing in my room.
I expected something different from this topic when I read the title. Anyway, for me, a sixth sense is certainly a reality. Look at simple things that happen to you in everyday life: for example, when I used to drive with my bicycle to school (about 6km) I used to arrive at school totally sursprised: how the hell did I get there? I would just dream away in my own world, minding nothing. My typical position would be with my arms flat and crossed on my handle-bar and my head lying on top of it. I'd be pointing my face towards the road, somehow being hypnotised by it, I'd dream away. I've had countless of times that there was an unpredicatable obstable right ahead of me (which I obviously couldn't see because of my nasty habbit of looking down), but suddenly, right on time I would wake up out of my dreamy thoughts and avoid it right on time. Something left unexplained by traditional theories. Or take artial marts: you just need a sixth sense in order to anticipate your opponent. It's this sixth sense that enables you to foresee things - whether this is a movement by an opponent or an obstable lying ahead. It's a very odd thing because it implies that you somehow escape from causality and time. Yet, look at the simulation theory proposed in the thread of human evolution by Bill T. But as I posted there, we just keep on guessing. We all belief what we like to belief.
So why do you think so many minds migrate towards the irrational bunko-sciences? Intelligent people believe in all sorts of utter nonsense: Telepathy clairvoyance, OBE, alien abductions, ancient astronauts, Bermuda Triangle phenomena. et cetera. I have heard the above question asked many times. Usually it is phrased as: The best answer I have seen (not original with me) is:
Your conclusion establishes a remarkably clear mark of the limits (some limits) to your exposure to currently growing themes in two recognizable scientific disciplines (generally): 1. morphological biology ( includeing botony)(R Sheldrake) and 2. physics, primarily special relativity and hook to quantum mechanics in local/nonlocal force exchanges (See EPR Experiment, J.S.Bell). Example: A subject is tested for some one of a possible 1000 physical attributes only one of which is possible at any one time (identical to rapidly spinning wheel of fortune with 1000 possibilities only one of which is pointed to at in a smal period of time) Pushing the stop button put brakes the wheel at one position. The particle has a twin going the other way. Measuring one of the twins effectively applies the brake to both twins simultaneously and with the same measured value though separated in space by half the universe. The probability for any one state for one twin is 1/1000, for both simultaneously (1/1000)*(1/1000) or one in a million. However twins measure 100% corelated Measuring nontwins the probability of simiultabneous occurances is 1/1000000 which is verified experimentally. The probability Pt of all twins behaving identically and assumed randomly then the probability Pr of a random twin effect Pt > 0 for all non-twin subtects is Pr = Pt = 10^-6 and for subject N is what, N!? The instantaneous affect can only mean the cause has a physical affect other than the mere statistical variation result meaning the the AB causal force is applied through nolocal channels instantneously. A careful reading shows applicability of these staistical implications are modeled to your profiled examination. Geistkiesel
sixth sense: sense of acceleration seventh sense: sense of hunger eigth sense: sense of orientation (inverted or right-side up) ninth sense: animals have magnetite in their brains which they use as directional compases. Very common in migratory animals. This material also exists in humans, and some studies have shown that people lost in the woods for a few days tend to be pretty good at telling which way is north, even when blindfolded. I'm in complete agreement with itopal as far as a "supernatural" sixth sense; there may be supernatural stuff in the world, but IMO, 99.99999% of it is simply stuff that is difficult to reproduce, so science doesn't (yet) consider it natural. How many "supernatural" things are now considered natural? Space travel, raining frogs, ball lightning. Just because it is unlikely doesn't make it supernatural (likewise, it doesn't make it real, either).
River-wind, In quantum physics there is a growing awarness of the so-called nonlocal forces. They work very strangely to some. If two light beams are generated from a single source with the total angular momenum for the two photons system is zero this means: That a measured angular momentum of +1 for one particle means the other particle will measure -1. Now the two bursts of light are moving apart at two times the speed of light. Quantum theory says the predicitng angular momentum of one photon is impossible it being a random process, yet when measuring the angular momentum of +.466 the other will measure -.466 and the prediction of a random state is assured. Measuring one instantaneously affects the other, even though the photons are separated by a galaxtic distance. The signal does not travel through space and in this regard the special relativity constraints do no apply say some, the issue is not quite settled. This experimentally verified phemomenon is termed nonlocal in that all the descriptions of an excited sate require the inclusion of nonlocal forces. The affect is not spatially significant but the time attributes are stunningly clear. AS soon as the measrmet is accomplished the distant object is affected . Another term for nonlocal is unobserved. That is whatever the effect that is observed the force exchanges involved in action at a distance instantaneously are unbserved , or nonlocal. The experimental results prove the affect but the force exchange processes are not observed, which is not to say they cannot be inferred with exactness, error free. My own take on thsi is the 6th sense, while discounted by the majority of the bio-sciences (I speculate) as some in this thread indicated, their descriptions of the conditions where the claims are more likely is a description of nonlocal activity. Those dismissing the affect do so on some belief system rather than with some scientific certainty. The failiure to see a needle move when a thing moves from here to there proves nothing. When considering the origin of a magnetic field one postulates a time varying electric field and ergo they say the earth has molten ionized particles in the center of the earth that are the time varying electric field that drives the earth's magnetic field. You know what? How do you infer or prove that the space around the compass needle is full of magnetic field instead of the field being manifest only when a magnetuc object is present, like a compass needle? The mental state will always be a mystery to those discounting the reality of nonlocal elements. Observation of the mental state when observed requires the interconnectivity of nonlocal force centers. A crude analogy is that hundreds of people have claimed to be Napolean, They can't all be correct? If the mental resonance conditions of the mental state is oscillating with harmonics identical or near identical to those of Napolean, then yes they can all be correct. But he is dead he can't have any Mind-waves. When referring to Napoleans's resonance we come to the realization that energy is neither created nor destroyed and that the nonlocal is definitely not an observable process; the nonlocal is void of spatial characteristics or attributes, and we get a feeling for hunches and cues, clues of another's action on the other side of the world instantaneouisly . Scientific remote sensing is (or was openly), used by intelligence units of the US Army. If a transistor in the electric circuit for the channel selection for ypur TV goes bad then when dialing in the History Channel you get the bull fights in Madrid Spain. The electric circuit is to the brain as the televison program is to the mind. All of the scientific mental state models seen in some general belief in or acceptance of the prevailng view, void in nonlocal force structues, is hopelessly incomplete. Geistkiesel
. Yes c'est moi you do have proof that the pink elephant is not standing in your room, you cannot observe it. You know good and well there is no pink elephant. Now what kind of proof do you need, a reading on an ammeter?You discuss it in rational terms designed to negate a mind's ability to even ponder the 6th sense. I grasp and understand infinitely more than the your suggestion indicates.. One negates the possible with a limiting philosophicsl negatism placed on a whole class of pheomena that is discounted out of hand, absent any data or information to verify the conclusion. Yet how void is your justificaion for arguing as you do. I have seen no attempt at a rational discourse, rather is cynical derision, a haughty smug 'know it all', superiority, knowledge with a sneer.. You discount as 'unreal' (almost in pathological terms) that which you cannot observe directly.. By negating the so-called supernatural you will never reach it nor be exposed to it. What is really strange, that for those that call themselves scientists they don't show the slightest interest in the subject.This indicates to me these 'scientists' absent curiosity, are doomed to return practically minimal useful scientific observations. Let me pick on dinosaur's statement a few posts back What is it about telepathy, clairvoyance, OBE etc that you find so rationally objectionable? Clearly you are not familiar with any of the topics as expressed in first hand accounts. You would argue all night long however, againt the reality claimed by those asserting experiences with any of the categories you mentioend. What is so objectionalble to any of these issues that you discount them out of hand? I wont try listing scientific verifiable results in virtually all of the matters you listed. How about the concept of nonlocal force centers described by JS Bell ,et al, regarding quantum mechanical structures. These nonlocal forces are as vitally necessary to the qm structure such that models void in nonlocal forces are hopelessly incomplete. Geistkiesel
Geistkeissel: Do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about my knowledge of various forms of supernatural nonsense. I do not call myself the dinosaur because I am a huge carnivorous reptile-like creature. I have been around for a long time. What is it about telepathy, clairvoyance, OBE etc that you find so rationally objectionable? Clearly you are not familiar with any of the topics as expressed in first hand accounts. The bolded (by me) phrase indicates that you are referring to anecdotal evidence, which should not be accepted by anybody who claims to base his opinions on evidence and rational analysis. I will indicate my reasons for not believing in ESP and not say anything about other forms of nonsense (perhaps in other threads or later in this one). BTW: I happen to enjoy fiction with an ESP theme. It is an interesting subject for fiction, but not to be taken seriously. Other than mere stories, do you have any basis for believing in ESP-like phenomena? I happen to have read quite a bit about this discipline and have some very good reasons to consider parapsychology a discipline being investigated and written about by charlatans and/or fools. When I was in high school (probably before you were born), I became aware of Rhine’s work at Duke University and discussed it with a few friends. We did not have access to the standard ESP decks invented by him. We used ordinary playing cards to run some experiments with clairvoyance and telepathy, which seem to be the easiest ESP phenomena to investigate. Our results were negative, and the others soon forgot about the subject. I continued to wonder about the seemingly positive results reported by Rhine and others. About 4 years after our high school experiments, I took a college course in probability and statistics. While the course content did not specifically mention ESP experiments, it showed that ESP researchers used a silly experimental design. If you analyze their methodology, it becomes obvious that either they know little about probability theory or else they are deliberating designing biased experiments (Id est: Either they are fools or charlatans). The basic design of ESP experiments requires the testing of a large number of people to see if some number of them score significantly higher than the average predicted by probability calculations. If (actually when) they find such people, they claim to have evidence favoring the existence of ESP. Probability theory predicts that you will find such people. Consider testing the ability to guess how a coin will land. Would you be surprised if four people guessed right ten times in a row? Would you be surprised if over 100 people guessed right 60% or more of the time? If you test about 5000 people, four or more are expected to guess right ten times in a row. If you test the same group on 100 coin tosses, about 140 are expected to guess right 60 or more times. ESP experiments are guaranteed to find people with ESP ability as defined by the researchers in this discipline. None of the articles I have read specified how many people were tested to find the few with alleged unusual scores. This data is essential to assessing the validity of the claims made, but always seems to be omitted from the articles. One of the most laughable articles I ever read was written by Putoff and Targ (I forget their first names) and published in Psychology Today many years ago. Due to their strange names, I initially thought the article was meant to be humorous. They claimed that ESP abilities were very elusive phenomena, easily interfered with by a distractive environment. They claimed that the controls suggested by mainstream scientists interfered with this elusive ability, but that good results were often obtained when there were few or no controls. Their claim reminded me of a 300 year old theory claiming that microscopic life was created spontaneously. I could imagine a believer in this theory describing it as an elusive phenomenon, interfered with if you sterilized the petri dishes, but quite likely to occur if you used dirty ones, especially during periods of high humidity when the laboratory windows were left open. Aside from the implications of poor experimental design, there is a logical reason for not accepting the claims of the ESP believers. When you chart any other measurable human ability, you get an approximation to a bell shaped curve. Sometimes the curve is not symmetric with respect to the average value, but it generally shows most of the people with abilities falling within one standard deviation of the mean, and fewer with more or less of the ability than the large group near the mean. The ESP data shows a few with measurable ESP abilities and the vast majority with no such ability. Why should ESP experiments not result in data suggestive of a bell shaped curve?
I agree completely. This would also explain why under the rigor of experimental control the ability is non-existent. ~Raithere
It's called 'dichotomous thinking'. Many people compartmentalize their worldview (for all kinds of psychological reasons) and apply different rules to different compartments with contradictory contents. We all do to some degree. I have two compartments (that I know of!). Matters that fall into the objective reality box (the earth is spheroid), and the subjective reality box (I like broccoli. Yummy.). Some have three: Objective, subjective, religious (mystical), I know good engineers who fully accept all the hard physical science they see, who say they like olives (yuck!), and know for sure that God created the earth 6000 years ago. Clearly this gives some folks the ability to preserve a sense of (false) rationality in the face of overwhelming evidence against their mystical or pseudoscientific beliefs. It takes a lot of work to apply objectivity to the universe at large. Some just aren't up to it.
While I realize this thread is more about brain functions than the fact that many natives had a sort of forewarning about the coming tsunami, I've just come across a quote in Scientific American that answers the question as to how they knew to head for high ground. “Our forefathers told us,” explains one tribesman, “that when the earth shakes, the sea will rise up onto the land. They said we should run to the hills or get into a boat and go far out to sea.” The Andamanese had a lead time of less than an hour. So while people in the information age groped through phone books to issue a tsunami warning that never arrived, those in the Stone Age had packed up their children, baskets, nets, bows, arrows and embers and run for the hills. So. It would seem that instead of going to the extreme length of attributing a sixth sense to the aboriginals, it might just be better to go straight to the horse's mouth and ask a native. These are not stupid people. They are a people with a long cultural history and their oral tradition relays to them information that is required for them to know to live in the world they live in. Modern man is so abstracted from his own environment and his own natural existence that he can only goggle in wonder at an earthquake, unable to put his mighty learned knowledge of our technological age to the simple task of connecting an earthquake with a possible tsunami. Or perhaps that's not the problem. Perhaps modern man requires a consensus in order to act. Who wants to be the one fleeing in terror only to be ridiculed for his actions by all the coolly staring eyes of the oh-so-knowledgeable. "Look at that fool. If there were a reason to run then they'd tell us. Wouldn't they? Of course they would. That's why we in the modern age are so wonderful and great. Our technological mastery of the world." The primitive man knows that he is at nature's mercy and does not question. Does not worry about appearing foolish. He simply follows the commands of his tradition. When the ground shakes one climbs a tree or gets in a boat and heads out to sea. Simple as that. I recall when this thread appeared and I was actually wanting to respond to it but never did. The discussion of the role of the anterior cingulate gyruss was interesting to say the least. The thing about this little piece of brain is that it is the halfway point of the old and the new brain. Before the neocortex, the cingulate gyruss was supreme. Much of our behavior originates in this area. Calls, especially. You might find it interesting that people with left temporal strokes and who are unable to speak or understand language can still utter curse words and expletives. They arise from the cingulate gyruss and are akin to animal calls. Also other common words, mommy, daddy, hey. Also arising from the cingulate are our cries (real cries, as in boo hoo) and our laughs. A blind and deaf child who's never seen or heard another human being express a cry or laugh will still make the same faces. Frowning, smiling. These all come from the cingulate gyruss. What else? I didn't reread all the linked material before posting this, but I seem to recall it mentioning functions which I had previously thought were mostly frontal lobe function. Decisions. Choosing what to focus on. It is information such as this which reminds one to stay on one's toes and to never allow dogmatic thinking to lock down what one knows. (I might add this. On the subject of a sixth sense. We do hae a sixth sense already and there is nothing mystical about it. It's called proprioception and it is the body's sense of itself. So, perhaps we should spread the word to the mystical folk so that they can stop claiming to have a sixth sense and instead claim a seventh... or perhaps an eighth... I think that our vestibular sense should also count... Any more? Probably.)
Exactly. These people are simply being practical -- something that is very, very remote to the "modern man".
Intelligent people DON"T believe in this kind of stuff. Those that do are just confused people being manipulated by con artists trying to sell them their wares.
Whatabout telekenesis or telepathy? I didn't believe in any such thing until I experienced it myself. The human brain is capable of so much more than we are aware of.
