A Simple Yes or No Question.

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Don Blazys, Aug 10, 2010.

  1. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Let all variables represent non-negative integers.
    Then, given the identity:

    \(T*a^{x}=(T*a)^{\left({{\frac{\frac{x*\ln(a)}{\ln(T)}+1}{\frac{\ln(a)}{\ln(T)}+1}\right)\)

    can we let \(T=1\) ?

    Don.
     
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  3. Roubini Registered Member

    Messages:
    35
    The way you've written it, no - because you'd have a division by zero.

    However, multiplying the numerator and the denominator in the exponent by ln(T) puts the expression into a form where you could let T = 1 (although it's not quite clear why you'd want to do that when you already have the LHS...)
     
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  5. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    10,167
    No. if T=1, ln(T)=0
     
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  7. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    Snap!
     
  8. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    2,257
    Oh, snap indeed! 2:31 AM vs 2:31 AM! You missed making the first reply by less than a minute!
     
  9. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    I agree. We can't let \(T=1\)

    Does this mean that multiplication by one
    automatically results in division by zero?

    Don.
     
  10. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,167
    No.
     
  11. Roubini Registered Member

    Messages:
    35
    Think of the conceptually much simpler case:

    f(x) = x/x

    A computer wouldn't accept 0 as an input to this function, even though it clearly has a sensibly defined value of 1 everywhere.
     
  12. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    But we all just agreed that multiplying

    \(a^{x}\) by \(T=1\)

    results in division by zero in the
    right hand side of the identity!

    Thus, according to this identity,
    multiplication by 1 does indeed
    result in division by zero!

    Don.
     
  13. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    f(x)= x/x at x=0 results in the indeterminate form 0/0.

    Indeterminate forms are allowable.

    Letting T=1 in the identity being discussed results in division by zero.

    Division by zero is not allowable.

    Don.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,963
    No. It just means that the right-hand side of your expression is invalid when T=1.
     
  15. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    The equation is an identity.
    If we can't let \(T=1\) on the right,
    then we can't let \(T=1\) on the left either.

    This is true even if we somehow "transported" the term
    on the right all the way to the other side of the universe
    where no one will ever see it again!

    Don.
     
  16. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,167
    Sure, but that's a pathology of that identity, not a general result.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    35,963
    Don:

    Here's another identity:

    \(\frac{a^2 - b^2}{a-b} = a + b\)

    Now, suppose a = b = 7, say.

    Is the left-hand side of the expression valid?
     
  18. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Of course it is. At a=b=7, it results in the indeterminate form 0/0
    which can easily be determined to be 14.

    Your example has absolutely nothing to do with the identity in question
    which does not result in an indeterminate form but a division by zero.

    Don.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,963
    L'Hopital's rule also applies to the indeterminate form \(\infty / \infty\), which is what the identity in your opening post has.

    So, I think you've proved that my example has everything to do with your one.
     
  20. Don Blazys Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    24
    No, we are dealing with non-negative integers.

    Division by zero does not result in infinity.

    Division by zero is simply disallowed.

    Don.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    35,963
    Disallowed by who? God?

    L'Hopital obviously thought it was allowed.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    35,963
    Second thoughts:

    Ok. If division by zero is disallowed, we come back to my earlier statement in a modified form. The right-hand side of your identity is disallowed when T=1.

    Are we done?
     
  23. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,167
    Why?

    So, for x=0...

    f(x) = x/x
    is "allowable", but

    f(x) = (1/x)/(1/x)
    is not?

    Even though they're identical?
     

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