A scientific definition of good and bad

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by MattMVS7, Sep 23, 2017.

  1. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    Experiment (Survey)

    I will present to you the experiment (survey) to be performed that would support my theory of an objective good and bad. What I am trying to do here with this whole discussion is to establish an objective good and bad (our emotions). I am trying to somehow make this work. To do that, then that would require some support for my theory. This is my theory worth sharing and discussing regardless of your objections such as that this idea of mine is nonsense. Many ideas were deemed as nonsense at the time. But, sure enough, they ended up being true. I have had emotional trauma in my life and these were such horrible states of mind that they cannot possibly be a matter of my way of looking at them.

    Words themselves cannot possibly hold such horrible power. It has to be the emotions themselves that hold the objectively beautiful power (positive emotions) and the objectively horrible power (negative emotions). As a side note, positive emotions would be euphoric states induced by the brain's biochemicals (serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, and endorphins). They could be feelings of joy, intense love, or a feeling of relaxation. Negative emotions would be feelings of dysphoria such as feelings of anger, hopelessness, and despair.

    But continuing on here and getting to the point, an experiment (survey) would support my theory. I will now present it to you:

    If a person loved his own feeling of misery or hated a certain positive emotion he had, then he would be having a subjective positive thought in regards to an objectively negative (bad) emotion and he would be having a subjective negative thought in regards to an objectively positive (good) emotion. You can have subjective judgments in regards to objective things. You can judge your positive emotions (which are objective wanting and liking) as not being any form of wanting and liking. But said judgment would be false. Go ask as much people as you can as to whether they think that their positive emotions are an objective wanting and liking.

    I bet they would tell you "no" and that they instead have their own personal wants and likes. If this survey were to be conducted and most people were to say "no," then this would clearly indicate that people are having false judgments in regards to their emotions. I said earlier that our positive emotions are an objective form of wanting and liking. There is a study on this that I will quote out to you right now:

    It just really gets to me that people are not in touch with their emotions. They instead dismiss them. If so many people are going to say that their positive emotions are not any form of wanting and liking for them, then it is quite obvious to me that they are also denying the fact that they are the inner light to our lives as well. According to my logical argument, a positive thought (good value judgment) simply does not line up with a negative emotion and neither does a negative thought (bad value judgment) line up with a positive emotion. That is why subjective good value judgments have to reflect an objective good (our positive emotions) while a subjective bad value judgment would have to reflect an objective bad (our negative emotions). This survey might not prove my theory, but it would at least be a starting point.

    Now, I know that many people won't take a liking to my spiritual analogy, but I am just going to use it anyway. If god existed, then his light would be sheer objective goodness. There are many people who would judge god as something horrible. Their judgments would be wrong. Even if they had the light of god flowing through their conscious being, they could still judge it as something bad due to their ignorance and lack of enlightenment to the real truth.

    When I feel the most profoundly beautiful positive emotion from nature or from a song, then I can clearly tell that this is a form of beauty that goes beyond words (value judgments). It is NOT just my way of looking at these emotions and judging them as beautiful. That also applies to all the horrible misery and emotional trauma I've had as well. These were literally horrible states of mind. So, what I mean by an objective good and bad would not be a concept or idea such as that it is a bad thing to harm someone. Rather, I mean that good and bad are the actual emotions themselves. When you are in a positive emotional state such as feeling a profound joy from nature, then that state is literally sheer goodness itself. It's as though the light of god and all of its sheer objective goodness has engulfed your conscious being. Objective goodness would be the same thing as objective wanting and liking (our positive emotions). So, they would be synonymous.

    Tones And Expressions

    If you were to witness a baby or a child, then this child would display positive tones and expressions if he were to feel a positive emotion. Likewise, he would display negative tones and expressions if he felt a negative emotion such as anger or fear. He would display angry tones/expressions as well as fearful ones. However, there are a few exceptions since people can actually display negative tones/expressions when feeling a positive emotion and they can display positive ones when feeling a negative emotion. But the point I am trying to make here is that our brains are wired by default to respond to positive emotions with positive tones and expressions and to respond to negative emotions with negative tones and expressions. This means that there is some reflection going on here.

    These positive tones and expressions would have to reflect the inherent positive nature of our positive emotions. The same applies to our negative emotions. This would also have to mean that positive thoughts reflect positive emotions and negative thoughts reflect negative emotions. It's no different than the objective wanting and liking (our positive emotions). People tend to respond to these emotions in wanting and liking ways. These wanting and liking expressions, thoughts, and tones reflect the inherent wanting and liking characteristics of our positive emotions. From here, it would follow that if people display thoughts, tones, and expressions that indicate their lives are good, beautiful, and worth living while having positive feelings of excitement or joy, that this would also reflect the inherent goodness and beauty of our positive emotions. The same rule applies to negative emotions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  3. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    Let me try this one more time. I will present a more coherent and brief version of my theory and experiment:

    How You Think Is How You Will Feel: To prove that our emotions possess inherent qualities of beauty and horror, then if you were to, for example, have the thought of something being the most profoundly beautiful thing in your life such as a character or moment, then that thought would make you feel a positive emotion. This positive emotion would literally take on that profoundly beautiful quality. Thus, producing an objective good and beauty that is being experienced in your life. This objective goodness and beauty takes on different forms (feels different). For example, a feeling of love (a positive emotion) would feel different than the feeling of joy or excitement from going to the carnival (another positive emotion). Therefore, the light takes on different tones and atmospheres in our lives to make our lives beautiful and good in various ways. The same concept applies to the darkness.

    This means that our subjective value judgments of good such as thinking it is a good day today make us feel a positive emotion and this positive emotion is the objective good. Subjective value judgments of things having bad value in our lives such as thinking that a certain situation is terrible would make us feel a negative emotion which would be the objective bad. After all, our positive emotions are already objective wanting and liking. So, why wouldn't they also be the objective good in our lives, too? Here is a study that points out our positive emotions being objective wanting and liking:

    Even if our emotions were drug induced rather than induced by thoughts, they would still be the objective good and bad. I would also like to set up a little experiment (survey) that would support my theory. Go ask as many people as you can as to whether they think that their positive emotions are an objective wanting and liking. I bet they would deny this and say they aren't. This proves that people are having false judgments regarding their positive emotions. Who knows, our positive emotions might be an objective good and people are only denying this, too!

    Tones And Expressions

    If you were to witness a baby or a child, then this child would display positive tones and expressions if he were to feel a positive emotion. Likewise, he would display negative tones and expressions if he felt a negative emotion such as anger or fear. He would display angry tones/expressions as well as fearful ones. However, there are a few exceptions since people can actually display negative tones/expressions when feeling a positive emotion and they can display positive ones when feeling a negative emotion. But the point I am trying to make here is that our brains are wired by default to respond to positive emotions with positive tones and expressions and to respond to negative emotions with negative tones and expressions. This means that there is some reflection going on here.

    These positive tones and expressions would have to reflect the inherent positive nature of our positive emotions. The same applies to our negative emotions. This would also have to mean that positive thoughts reflect positive emotions and negative thoughts reflect negative emotions. It's no different than the objective wanting and liking (our positive emotions). People tend to respond to these emotions in wanting and liking ways. These wanting and liking expressions, thoughts, and tones reflect the inherent wanting and liking characteristics of our positive emotions. From here, it would follow that if people display thoughts, tones, and expressions that indicate their lives are good, beautiful, and worth living while having positive feelings of excitement or joy, that this would also reflect the inherent goodness and beauty of our positive emotions. The same rule applies to negative emotions.
     
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  5. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    This is recycled rubbish about good and bad being forces

    Move along nothing to see here

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  7. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    This is different. I have an actual experiment (survey) to support my idea. Don't refer to my opening post. Refer to the one below it.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,741
    I can imagine a god that is either indifferent or evil.
    I think it would be horrible to consider an entity that had such power over me, regardless of its intent.

    I can prove that emotions do not reflect objective goodness (if I'm understanding your premise, which I'm not sure that I am). Take a single event, the defeat of one's enemy. On one side, it produces positive emotions, and on the other negative. Which is objectively true?
     
  9. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    235
    Objective good and bad would be synonymous with a positive and negative emotion. So, objective good and bad would not be a concept or an idea.
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,652
    So, regards to Spidergoats' scenario:

    The Blues meet the Reds on the battlefield.
    Blues beat the snot out of the Reds.
    Blues are imbued with positive emotion, thus subjectively thinking this is a good day.
    Blues are imbued with negative emotion, thus subjectively thinking this is a very bad day.
    Where is the objective good or bad?
     
  11. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    You are focusing on the day. That is why it is confusing to you how there would be an objective good or bad in that scenario. The objective good and bad is beyond words. It is beyond any reasoning. It is pure energy itself. Like I said, it would be our emotions.
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,652
    You don't get to claim it's beyond words or reasoning. That would be preaching, and it's against the rules - for any subforum, nevermind the Alt Theories subforum.

    Here, the rules explicitly state that we get to question you about your idea, and you are obliged to provide answers.

    Alternately, as to the matter of "pure energy itself", I'll happily report this so it can get moved to Free Thoughts, or possibly the Cesspool. Accept or retract.

    So:

    There are positive emotions and negative emotions in virtually any situation. Where does the objectivity come in?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  13. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    3,229
    Ok it's rubbish with survey which has nothing to do with the rubbish

    And this is where objective Science leaves the building

    Yet here you are using words

    Yet here you are trying to reason

    Interesting. Pure energy you say. Energy means the ability to do work

    ***
    Common forms of energy include the kinetic energy of a moving object, the potential energy stored by an object's position in a force field (gravitational, electric or magnetic), the elastic energy stored by stretching solid objects, the chemical energy released when a fuel burns, the radiant energy carried by light, and the thermal energy due to an object's temperature

    MY HIGHLIGHTS

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

    **"
    So which of the ability to do work is this pure energy of which you babble?

    My OPINION here regarding the post is you have no idea what you are talking about due to some sort of scrambled thoughts mixing religion and science

    Here is a clue to resolve your problem (YES it is a problem). You can pick Religion or Science. You can't have them both

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  14. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    I often times have a problem conveying my ideas coherently so that they make sense. So, let me convey them properly in such a way that it doesn't come across as some religious preaching. We could either acknowledge the good and bad value that things and situations hold, or we could perceive the good and bad value that these things hold. There is a big difference between acknowledging value as opposed to perceiving it. For example, a blind person could acknowledge the existence of objects, but he would not be able to perceive (see) them. Wanting, liking, unwanting, and disliking allow us to perceive, not simply acknowledge, the good and bad value that things hold. You could either perceive the good and bad value that things hold or you could perceive your own personal created value. For example, if there was a mother feeding child vegetables, then the vegetables would be good.

    However, the child would be perceiving them as bad since he hated them. He did not want the vegetables and, thus, he perceived his own personal bad value in regards to them. But if the child did not care at all about them and thought that they were good, then he would just be acknowledging them as good. Our positive emotions are a form of wanting and liking. They are an objective wanting and liking according to that study I presented. This means that our positive emotions are an objective good.

    They allow us to truly and objectively see the beauty, joy, goodness, love, etc. in our lives while our negative emotions are what allow us to truly see the bad qualities of our lives. So, that is what I mean here when I say that our emotions are pure objective goodness and badness. It is through our emotions that we perceive the good and bad qualities on a whole new level that goes far beyond simply acknowledging these values. It would be a higher and transcended perception of these values. If a person was blind his whole entire life and could only acknowledge the existence of atmospheres and objects, then he would find himself quite surprised once he gains his sight. He would be in a whole new world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  15. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Saying you are unable to express what you are trying to say does not absolve you from answering questions. Of which you have a poor record

    And that is exactly precisely without a doubt the problem
    You can't because it is
    No matter how much lipstick and nice dresses you put on a pig you can't disguise its a pig

    Again make a choice Religion or Science. The good news is you can pick one but you are free to change to the other at anytime without any penalty

    Putting dresses and lipstick on pigs is a dead end profession

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  16. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    Please explain to me how what I said in my recent post was like a religious preaching? I do not understand since I was stating a hypothesis this time that does not involve the terms god, spiritual, divine, etc. As for my usage of the term "energy," leave that out since that, too, was just a faulty metaphor/analogy.
     
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    6,652
    Preaching is not limited to spiritual matters. Preaching is the act of expressing your own views without allowing for challenge or analysis of those views - particularly by claiming youre the only one who can understand the concepts, that everyone else doesnt and therefore cant ask the right questions, and that itsup to you to provide the method by which we ask them.
     
  18. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    You're saying that the view I advocated in my recent post does not allow itself to be challenged? Isn't there some way to test it? Surely, there must be a way.
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. YOU said that:

    "Defies words, defies reason"
     
  20. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    Again, that is another faulty metaphor/analogy. So, just forget it. Instead, read that recent post because it does not imply that at all. Here it is. I will quote it and add a few things to it. What I am trying to say here is that good and bad are intrinsic qualities:

     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Pig + lipstick + dress still a pig

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  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps what you need to do is take some time to polish your idea until you can express it directly, rather than trying to create these analogies.
     
  23. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

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    Understood. But I think I have already achieved that goal now. So, I think we are ready here to discuss this idea of mine. Lastly, let me add something else here which is important:

    When I am in my most miserable and hopeless state due to an emotional trauma, then my whole entire reality is the most horrible hell. But when I reach a state of full recovery, I am able to see harmony, peace, joy, beauty, and goodness. This is a perception that I never had during that miserable moment. This is a perception that goes beyond a value judgment. In other words, it goes beyond a mere thought and it is like a blind person recovering his sight. So, I can clearly tell that this is not a matter of my value judgment when I say that I see the peace, harmony, joy, and goodness in my life. This proves that our positive mood and emotional state is the inner light to our lives. I could clearly tell that thoughts themselves of goodness and beauty during my miserable moments did absolutely nothing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017

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