A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, Mar 21, 2014.

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  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    It's not possible, and you'll unlikely see atheism as part of that issue, which will instead be an issue between the varying religions under the umbrella of those policies. And since, neither side will ever give in to the other side, there will always be conflict, that is why the policies MUST be made under secular conditions, never giving any one side any effects that will have precedence over any other side. Atheism can easily fall within these parameters.

    That will never happen, the only way all sides have protections and rights is if they all live in a secular society, with state and church being separated. Unfortunately, many believers want to have their rights and protections but don't want to allow others to have the same rights and protections. Homosexuals, for example. So, if the believers don't want others to have rights, then we should remove their rights. Fair is fair.


    No, I don't think so, far from it. Atheism is simply getting a whole lot more attention lately due to the internet. Millions are losing their religion as a result, hence the rest of the believers are up in arms, as usual, using every propaganda tactic they can muster to put atheism in a bad light.
     
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    There is no tithe among atheists, so really it's no obligation at all. But thanks for acknowledging that we try to convert our readers over to reason. I'll take free points from you wherever I can get them--all the better after that layup by Spidergoat.

    Now that we've settled that, how about those Fundamentalists? They've certainly taken on a huge obligation, don't you think, just to convert their initiates over to unreason? I wonder how many meals on wheels could have been served with what was invested in that Creation Disneyworld which was designed to convince gullible people that humans lived in the age of dinosaurs. And all those leaflets and magazines and books which do the same? Plus the web sites. And all those lawyers litigating against the teaching of evolution? And don't forget suing to get climatologists' personal emails. I'd hate to be driving that Winnebago. Now that's what I'd call an obligation.

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    Now I see this:

    Call me stupid and call me dishonest but I do not recall feeling the need to insult you. I can only recall feeling the need to sing your praises, and have candidly done so on several occasions. I wasn't even sure what you were referring to. I just now realized I had overlooked this post:

    Sorry for the late reply, but I only noticed this after it resurfaced in Balerion's recent post #361. I'm at a loss to understand your objection. Do you mean paraphrasing your remarks (post #3)

    (emphasis added by me) -- as "atheists are morons" -- was "a fuckup"?

    More to the point: how is citing what you said, as an example of generalizing to a stereotype, a fuckup? :bugeye:

    How is any of this dishonesty or a stupid barb? None of this adds up.

    Also, I didn't understand your reason for saying this fuckup was grounds for you not to respond to me. I'm not pressing you to respond, I'm just trying to understand you and your characterizations of me. Sometimes it seems like a test, or a joke, and other times you seem to be sincere. Be that as it may, I apologize for any remarks I made that you feel were launched as barbs. Feel free to help me understand what you mean.

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  5. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    If you believe that religions are to be bought and sold like so many other products on the market, not only have you missed the mark entirely about what religion is about, but you are doing little more than exploiting religion for your own selfish needs. You would be a very good example of why religions need to have their rights removed.

    That is just plain silly and entirely false. No need to make up lies.

    Sorry, but in order for believers to maintain their rights, they must live in a secular society in which all religions share equal rights, hence the separation of church and state. You will create far more conflict between the various religions by allowing prayer in schools. Pray at church if you want to pray, come to school if you want to learn.

    Nonsensical gibberish.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    That's right, I forgot you can only deal with short sentences.

    When people take the time to respond to you in detail, perhaps you should be less of a prat about it.

    Can you please explain how or why you believe I am being emotional? What is it with people accusing me of being emotional whenever I dare to post anything?

    Oh no I fully understand what you do not believe in. I just think that your whole spiel are mere headlines with absolutely no fillers, in a manner of speaking. You seem to blame everything on theists. You fail to account for the human condition and the pure and simple fact that humans are selfish. What? Do you think the persecution and demonising of women only happens in theist cultures, households or communities? You actually think it's theists who mistreat minorities? Which minorities? Gays? Yes. What about secular Governments turning back refugees? What about those minorities? Or do they not count? What about the mistreatment and distrust of certain religious minorities resulting in human rights abuses against them? Do they count? Or is that acceptable because, well, they are theists?

    Perhaps you could be less paranoid? If you are incapable of going beyond talking points and incapable of having your militant atheism critiqued, perhaps you should keep your beliefs to yourself?
    I'm not the one refusing to answer anything and incapable of even naming his theistic enemies? You are. I am also not the one complaining if a post has more than 3 sentences and refusing to go into any detail and then rambling about bans or what have you. You are.

    If you can't cope with having your militant atheism critiqued, then that is your problem, not mine.

    Just because you are an atheist does not mean I, as an atheist, will agree with your brand of atheism.
     
  8. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, I read the exact same post by you and emotional was not a word I would have used to describe it. Sorcerer's response was him copping out and making the excuse that you were being emotional because he knows you are female and it is his cheap way to get a rise out of you, I suspect. When you can't win an argument on merit there is always insult!

    Bells, your writing style is lively and animated and maybe people mistake that for emotional.:shrug:
     
  9. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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  10. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    That sounds interestin... please give an example of it.!!!
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure if I dug around here I could find a few, but as an example:

    the Wisconsin based Freedom From Religion Foundation is SUING the Clemson Tigers football program for having prayer and bible studies as a part of the team... even though none of the students are required to participate in these if they don't wish to, nor are they punished for not doing so.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...GRAM-ATTACKED-BY-ATHEIST-GROUP-FROM-WISCONSIN

    IN fact, I would say the entire FFRF is... well, psychotic. It's an attempt to make Atheism into a religion all its own and force others to either follow it, or not follow any (which, i thought, was the point of atheism to being with...?)
     
  12. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    One litmus test of how irrational atheism can be is the idea of the separation of church and state.

    If you compare the church and state, only the state has the right to raise an army, to raise taxes, to create laws and enforce law via police, justice and prison systems. It has the power of life and death. The church has no such power, beyond any other political group, like the democrats or republicans. If this was a gladiator match, picture the state as the 380 pound 6'8" warrior with body armor, sword, battle ax and shied, versus religion which is a 150 pound farmer with a stick and garbage can lid.

    The founding fathers saw the same equation had formed in England, with the king of England (state) having commandeered the church. He could use the law, an army and police to enforce religious persecution. Groups like the Pilgrims had to leave, since you can't fight the state when it uses the law to stack the deck to prevent opposition. The founding father attempted to give the farmer analogy, a fighting chance against the state, but putting a handicap on the 380 pound 6'8" warrior, saying it had to be play fair; no cheating on top of all the power advantages it had.

    This irrational position, by atheism of state allowed to cheat, does not reflect that atheism is being lead by the reason of science. It is being led by certain political groups that use science like a prop to promote irrationality, via waving the science prop around.

    Let me ask the rational and scientific based atheists, whom I respect, detail their own power equation for church and state? Maybe I am missing something. My equation is why I believe that atheism is irrational at the top due to alliances.
     
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Wellwisher, the idea behind true atheism is simple - in its most generalized form, atheism does not subscribe to the belief in any kind of deity. It is, simply put, just another system of belief... the problem stems from both sides though. Theists want to evangelize and "save" atheists, where as atheists, in general, just want to be left alone, though some (such as the group I mentioned above) take it to the offensive and try to remove as much religion as possible
     
  14. Balerion Banned Banned

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    This is a moderator, ladies and gentlemen.
     
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Why is this psychotic? How does this make atheism a religion?

    The cause to keep a wall of separation between Church and State is not a religious one, and characterizing it as such as ignorant.
     
  16. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed, though I do rather feel her post was justified given the circumstances... a desire not to read long posts really doesn't constitute much of an argument.

    Balerion, I know you are smarter than that.

    The football program put together something so the players could have prayer and worship if they so chose... nobody is forcing them to do anything.
    Conversely, this FFRF is attempting to dismantle that and force ALL the players to renounce any sort of religion whilst on the field, on the grounds that it is "separation of church and state".

    The school is not promoting a religion. It has simply allowed it to occur. This does not go against separation of church and state; if anything, attempting to force everyone into compliance with one (non)religious viewpoint (atheism) would be trampling that separation, as it would violate a students right to worship as they deign appropriate.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    To whom are you appealing to here?

    Sorcerer has spent quite a bit of time complaining about having to read too much if anyone dares to insult him by answering with detail in their posts. I was merely responding to yet another one of his 'dodges' of complaining that I had spent my time in responding to him and giving him the time of day to provide detail in my posts. How dare I! The horror! Oh the humanity!

    If one repeatedly complains when posts have paragraphs in them, then I can only assume that individual can only cope with short sentences.
     
  18. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Its a smart azz reply... so what... thats not aganst the rules (i supose) even for mods.!!!
     
  19. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    While I definitely think that atheism is more justifiable intellectually than theism, I'm less convinced that atheists typically arrive at their atheism by a process of rational thought.

    Many atheists are born into it. I wasn't raised in a religious home, for example, certainly not in a conventionally religious home. Even when I was a small child, I can't remember ever believing that the Bible stories were anything but stories.

    That was all before I was ever introduced to philosophy and started thinking philosophically. In a way, my path was already kind of laid out for me before I ever started to reflect intellectually on it. I've always been fascinated by the religion and religiosity of those around me, but have never felt particularly threatened by it or hostile towards it.

    Many other atheists appear to be former theists, reacting (sometimes violently) against the religions in which they were raised as children and once embraced. There's an inner struggle that's still taking place inside some atheists' heads and it can occasionally get very heated and emotional in there.

    I don't think that it's always clear what if anything atheists are trying to achieve.

    Some atheists just don't believe in the existence of religious deities and that's that. Whatever they are trying to achieve in their lives has little or nothing to do with that disbelief.

    But other atheists have very strong, passionate and typically highly negative views about "religion" and "religionists", and may occasionally feel that they are participants in a grand historical struggle of "reason" and "science" against what they imagine as evil obscurantism.

    It seems to me that the latter, more militant kind of atheists are implicitly adding new ideological premises to the simple disbelief that defines atheism.
     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, you are missing something very important.

    It is the state that gives YOU freedom of religion so that other religions never have the power to suppress or persecute YOU, which means YOU also cannot have the power to suppress or persecute them. Hence, if the church were allowed to create an army, raise taxes, etc., this would result in conflict and wars between the various religions that have to live in the same state.

    Is any of this getting through to you?
     
  21. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know if I agree with the FFRF until I learn more details about this.

    There have been superficially similar instances in the US military where commanders organized "voluntary" Bible studies and prayer meetings. Supposedly personnel were free to not attend, but if they didn't they were apparently labeled 'trouble makers' who were not 'team players' and somehow ended up getting all the shitty assignments.

    To its credit, the military higher ups do try to dial that stuff in when they hear about it. Doing so isn't "psychotic", it's just good management.

    So I'd like to learn more about what kind of repurcussions, however subtle, a Clemson team member might experience if he didn't attend.

    The obvious way to address this would be to have individual team members (or military personnel) organize prayer and Bible studies for themselves and whoever among their fellows are interested, without turning it into an organized team (or unit) activity.
     
  22. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

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    You're just trolling me, as you did in the first two posts. Just what is your agenda, and why are you hiding behind your mod status? You're on ignore now, as far as a mod can ever be.
     
  23. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    When my 7th grade home room teecher esplained the order in which we woud read a bible verse to the class each mornin... it was jus assumed that everone woud partisipate an we did... but i felt as silly as if i was readin a list to the class what Santa had promised to brang me for Chrismas.!!!

    I didnt get the memo on what the points of atheism are... lol... but personaly... im not supportive of superstition.!!!
     
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