A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, Mar 21, 2014.

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  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Alright, I'm calling you all out.

    Would you please stop deliberately misrepresenting atheism as a brainless cult?
     
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Atheists are misrepresenting themselves or other atheists? I missed out I guess.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Merely As Dangerous as Any Other Loaded Gun in the Hands of Chldren

    It would be one thing to simply live without God and so on. But evangelical atheists remind constantly that their hatred of religion leads to or is the result of extraordinary ignorance of history, psychology, anthropology, and art. Once upon a time, evangelical atheists were proud to boast of their intelligence; but once society obliged and paid attention, they proved themsleves as stupid as the religious people they hate with such focused passion. It would be nice to think that atheism is something legitimate, but considering the behavior of the atheists I know in my real life circles, here at Sciforums, and otherwise through the virtual extension to the rest of humanity, such a belief would be an utter and decrepit lie.

    I would like to think atheists are all they claim to be, but they're not, and that would be okay except they are apparently incapable of recognizing their limitations. And, yes, that makes them as dangerous as the religious megalomaniacs.
     
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  7. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I can speak for my own words here, albeit though my own lenses, but I'm not too sure who else might be worthy of your scorn.

    Fell free to let the chips fall where they may. I can think of no better voice to woop me up the side of the head than yours.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Sluts

    What I'm after here is an attitude problem I've noted for years. Unfortunately, "atheism" in our contemporary period has become nothing more than another version of supremacism.

    I'm tired of people claiming "atheism" as an identity behaving as if they are ignorant, religious sluts.
     
  9. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    No philosophy can truly alter human nature. Surely religion should have disabused you of that notion long ago.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    My Sympathy for Atheists Is Dying

    It's now pretty much a matter of politics; I would support the atheistic cause if it was something more than a supremacist movement.
     
  11. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    It seems to always come to that.

    It's not a cause. Anyone who attempts to label it such is simply using it to support a cause. As you state, it's a matter of politics.

    On a personal level, I agree. For many it appears to be not much more than a club to smack others over the head with. I find the presumption of supremacy amusing and, yes, dangerous.

    But I think the fundamental issue has a much broader scope, considering the polarized political landscape. People are attached to ideologies beyond any scope of reason. It has something to do with how we define our identity but I haven't been able to figure out what has changed.
     
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

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    What's the matter, did someone say something uncomfortably true about Islam at dinner?

    No, it doesn't. No atheist is seeking to take away a religious person's right to practice their faith. No one is trying to take anything away from them, except perhaps the assumption that their particular faith is more important than the faith or non-faith of others.

    Of course, there's always danger in ideology. Atheism is just as susceptible to it as any other view. I just haven't seen it manifested yet, outside of Dawkins' horrible (and defunct) idea to label atheists "Brights." As it is right now, atheist initiatives are ones that could be held by any right-minded theist, such as keeping creation mythology out of biology class, keeping faith out of politics, and having some consideration for non-Christians (including people of other faiths) in public spaces.

    But forget all that! I'm sure you've got a good reason for your diatribe!
     
  13. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa

    I don't see Atheists claiming to be morally superior or more intelligent, they just do not share the delusions of believers. I've been discriminated against all my life for being a non-believer, often the person doing the discrimination is totally unaware of just how offensive they are being, our culture is soaked in their delusions and prejudice, they automatically assume their moral superiority and right to preach their message(but I, of course, have no morals and should not be allowed to state my opinions on the matter, oh think of the children!). So suck it up. You sound like those billionaires complaining about how the poor are Nazis and they're feeling slightly Jewish, never realizing we've been putting up with theist's "accidental prejudice" and oppression of thought our whole lives. Welcome to our world, we're no longer going to put up with the mess religion has made in our civilization. I'm perfectly willing to put up with believers, but they don't any longer enjoy their privileged, favored status in my world. BooHoo.

    Grumpy

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  14. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I see you're setting this up a little differently than your other threads which usually begin with some well assembled research and plenty of analysis to boot.

    The idea that atheism is superior to superstition is Ok but I'm not sure I would characterize it as supremacy. I think atheists are everywhere confronted by the supremacist religiosos, who nearly everywhere are ideologically descended from Anabaptists. (Ignoring other theaters such as Shiite fundamentalism).

    The more objective treatment of this (is it me or are you feeling a little edgy here?) is to simply ask which is the correct way to think about the world -- that it is what it is in parallel with my belief in myths long-since debunked, or that it is what it is in parallel with my knowledge that such myths were actually long-since debunked?

    It's impossible for me to engage that level of dialogue with the religiosos at large since they're living inside the paradox described in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

    There's nothing supremacist about casting off illusion, and it's certainly the better position for an insightful mind to gravitate toward. This may not be what you meant by supremacy. Since you're expressing some visceral response here, I'm assuming I'm on your shit list, in some way or another, which never occurred to me before. (You did cast a pretty wide dragnet.) After all I do tend to avoid the mollycoddling given to religious ideation and when pushed with nonsense I can be strident in the throes of my own visceral nature. Guilty as charged.

    My defense it that it's simply wrong to live inside the illusion of mythology. To the extent you may take umbrage at my remarks, I take umbrage at the practice of indoctrinating young and vulnerable minds with fairy tales we all know are not true.

    God does not exist. This is not a matter of religion nor is it one of physics; all of those lengthy diatribes are wasted on meaningless argument. The same is true for all the epistemics. Each of those fields have no jurisdiction here. This is a clear cut question of anthropology and nothing more. It informs us that God is an invention, an artifice of human superstition as ancient people grappled to understand phenomena for which they had no science. There is no God, there never was. There was copious remnants of the Big Bang, hammering frightened people with earthquakes, lightning bolts and peals of thunder, eclipses of the Sun, falling stars, volcanoes, furious storms and floods that wiped out entire enclaves, natural disturbances and migratory patterns that caused animal populations to act strangely (swarms of locusts or frogs, etc) . . . anyway you know all of this. You know there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God is artificial.

    Therefore God does not exist. That's as simple as it gets. To say otherwise is not a matter of being better or worse, it's a matter of being blindly in denial of, or reasonably informed by, common knowledge. I put no intrinsic value on the blindness per se (devalue it that is) and wouldn't even engage the subject here if not for the way that a minority of blind people are pretending to lead the sighted into some truly nonsensical version of progress (esp in matters of public policy). Even that's not the kicker -- it's the way they are doing it under the mantle of supremacy you are attacking. So at the moment I'm lost. You always advocate on the side of reason, so I have no waypoints to measure this particular tack you're on.

    In case I'm one of the posters who irritates you, I'm thinking of what I might have recently said to trigger this now (feel free to confront me as you see fit; you're probably incapable of reaching the depths of stupidity that would get me wired up) . . . and there was a post I made recently poking fun at the worship of Haile Selassie in Jamaica. Does that make me a supremacist? How so? Don't you yourself think that's ridiculous? More to the point: where do we draw the line? With the snake handlers? How about the ones luring underage girls into their harems? Somewhere, at some point there must be a kind of ideology that even you would have to feel so averse to that they would tend to think of you as the supremacist. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just winging it here since you haven't done the usual exposition which sets the factual predicate for establishing your position.

    How do you view the optimum balance between (A) the appeal to common sense and preference for real evidence, as atheists view the world, and (B) the appeal to myth and superstition as preferred by the religious world view--at the cost of throwing the real evidence out? (The anthropological fact of spirits being created by people is well established, is it not?) From where I sit, the tendency for far too long has been to mollycoddle the fantasizers. Atheists have historically been second class citizens who only in my lifetime truly came out of the closet. You want a world where we go back inside? No, I don't even think that's at all what you're saying. That leaves me a little bit at loss to figure out what you're driving at.

    You want me to walk on eggshells around religious folks? I'm already doing that. I barely post in the Religion forum anymore since it's like trying to hang out with the hall monitor. Forget that. There are plenty of trolls to accost in the Science threads without having to worry about whether Little Baby needs to be burped or have his nose wiped.

    I'm just freewheeling here since I'm really not sure what you're driving at. Feel free to expand as you see fit, or take me to the carpet if something I've said really sticks in your craw. Also if something else is bothering you, feel free to expand as you see fit. Are you just venting or what? What's really going on? Are you OK? Get some rest, go do something cool, kick your heels up if you can and come back and square this up with me if you feel so moved.
     
  15. Sorcerer Put a Spell on you Registered Senior Member

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    I would be quite happy to live and let live, so I'd do my atheism in private and so would the religionists, but that's not how it works. Religion permeates public policy, especially in the States as well as places like Iran, Saudi and much of sub-Saharan Africa, and is quite aggressive about it, notably in their attitude to women and minorities, so naturally there is a back-lash, and I think that's what you're seeing. I certainly don't thing of supremacy.
     
  16. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    @ Aqueous,
    I recall a thread some months ago in which Tiassa used the term apathetic agnosticism/atheism and suggested that this approach in dealing with the religious was the superior method. I happen to agree with Tiassa, whether one believes or does not believe in a deity is irrelevant to me. Can I prove or disprove the existence of any god, well no I cannot nor do I want to. What i can do without attacking anyone's belief is discuss religion in historical and anthropological terms which enlightens everyone involved (see our conversation in (I believe) What will we Replace Religion with.

    I mean i get it, noone is as tired as I of the religious using their holy texts to inflict bigotry,racism, homophobia, wars, sexism, etc... than I, but becoming as oppressive and intolerant as the people you are trying to move from their position or belief is not the answer. What changed my mind, you may ask, or not?

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    Not any personal attacks on my belief, that's for sure (this approach would have made me dig in) What changed my mind was discussing religion (not just mine) from a historical and philisophical perspective. I was not made to feel stupid for my belief, or told that my belief was a fairy tale, nothing like that, in the end it was just a natural progression from belief to I don't believe that anymore. Even in my personal journey from believer to nonbeliever, without the ridiculing it was painful enough. Being told I was ignorant certainly would not have helped.
     
  17. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Which would, in turn, make this an error on the part of theists... and I can agree to that. I love the way my church (Crosspoint United Methodist) puts things - they are open to anyone, of any faith and belief; even communion is open to all. The only real stipulation is that you come with an earnest desire for more; more what is up to you, what you are trying to discover is up to you. It is... incredibly welcoming. I had almost lost my faith before meeting Nikki (my wife) because of how... I don't really know how to say it... how stuffy? Closed minded? Bigoted? My previous church (a UCC church) was... the older members even chased out an assistant pastor who was INCREDIBLE at connecting with the youth and children, just because he was gay. It didn't matter that his sermons were always met with rapt attention and higher attendance. It didn't matter that, under his leadership, the youth ministry program flourished. All that mattered was that he was "different"... that crushed me, to see people in my own church be so narrow minded. When I realized I couldn't do anything about it (after spending several months on various fellowship committees within the church trying to get some changes enacted) I left. It didn't help the churches case that guests and visitors were pretty much shunned... people wouldn't so much as make eye contact with them, treating them like outcasts...

    Crosspoint is... incredibly open, and their members make a point of greeting and talking with guests and new members as much as possible. The fact that it is a more upbeat and contemporary service, spreading good news and comfort as opposed to fire and brimstone... it's a welcoming place. Yes, it is first and foremost a christian community... but it is one that welcomes anyone who wishes to learn, even if they may not necessarily believe all the same things.

    I can see why Atheists feel kind of persecuted though... sadly religious people can tend to take their beliefs to irrational and often irritating extremes.
     
  18. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Please enlighten us then. What knowledge of history justifies believing in things without evidence? The Crusades? The Inquisition? The suppression of scientific inquiry? The burning of witches? What psychology says that people can't live without mistaking fairy tales for reality? What art can't be appreciated by secular people?
     
  19. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    Well, here's the thing Spidergoat - religion does have some backing evidence... after all, SOMETHING had to have motivated people, even after the creation of the sciences, to continue to believe in the Almighty. Else, why would humanity have done so for so long, and with so many variations?
     
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    That's childish.

    The idea that atheists are "a brainless cult" is your crude misrepresentation of atheists.

    Are you really battling us, or just struggling against your own reflection in the mirror?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    If this thread were created by anyone who was not a moderator, it would most likely get deleted and the offender warned or banned. But, since Tiassa created it...
     
  22. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Ignorance, egotism, and superstition.
     
  23. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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