A question concerning Marijuana..

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by machaon, Nov 26, 2001.

  1. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Scilosopher, yeah, The Simpsons...

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    The makers of that must have been stoned!

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    Wonderful to look at that television 'family'.

    The lectures by Edufer were to long, I can't comprehend such long articles, my memory is blocked because of the THC. :bugeye: My apologies... Momentarily lapse of reason I presume...

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  3. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    Banshee,
    Did you see the Simpsons this week? Homer gets prescribed medicinal marijuana and coincidentally it has one of the most random plots of all time.

    Lectures rarely are effective. It is better to positively propose a system of thought or perspective which is contrary to smoking ...
     
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  5. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    Banshe and Scilosopher: It is sad to learn you took my contribution intended to give you the other side of the story as a lecture. I used to attend lectures during the early part of my life, and I am glad I did. I learned a lot, believe it or not, as I was the guy that always kept asking the lecturer "why", "how", "when", "who" and "where". Those five questions are the basis of science and knowledge. Later in my life, I was the one who was invited to give lectures, and I was glad when somebody asked those questions, because I saw there was an inquiring mind.

    You were making statements and comments, so I intruded in your chat and innocently wanted to give my side of the story, this time from the scientific point of view. Yours were an exchange of recolections and emotional experiences, so I'll do my last contribution this time from an emotional point of view.

    My personal experience with MJ might be purely anecdotal, but it served me. I went to the USA at the age 23, back in 1960, to study Commercial Art and Advertising at the Art Students League in New York, and later at the Pratts Institute (there were no CAD and computer art then, you had to draw or paint with your own hands, so help you God, your genes and talent). <b>ALL</b> my friends smoked MJ or Hashish, none was on cocaine or heroin --yet. Among my friends were Jack Kerouac, Norman Mailer, and Robert Frank, the photographer, although I was much younger than them. I was at the party when Mailer stabbed his wife, no one know for what reason, but I can guess why he did it.

    They always offered to share their joints with me, but I gently refused. I did smoke cigarretes (about 10 a day, but quit smoking them in 1969) and many years after I developed a taste for Cuban cigars -one good Partagas a day, no inhaling, just savouring it in the mouth- and drank about 1 can of beer every two to three days. No whiskey, gin or vodka or any kind of hard liquor. I was the black sheep in the bunch.

    As I always had a scientific mind, at last I decided to give it a try, but first I had ready paper, pen, and a tape recorder, and away we went smoking pot. We got high --a sensation that disgusted me very much-- and talked about "very profound matters", I played the guitar and improvised some jazz at the piano. All was taped in my Geloso tape recorder, and we made drawings that were kept to posterity. Everybody were delighted by my music, our drawings and our talk. Deep, profound philosophy, and we thought our sensitivity had been elevated to sublime grounds. Then everybody went home to sleep.

    Next morning, I rewinded the tape and listened to the talk and the music. Then looked at the drawings. I couldn't believe my ears and eyes! How could I have said such simplistic, stupid things, how could I have played such clumsy jazz, and did incredibly idiotic drawings! Everybody believed we were being geniuses at the moment. Under the light of reason we had been a bunch of morons.

    Maybe MJ acted differently on me because it was my first (and only time), but it acted on the others in the same way it did on me. It took us about three or four levels down in our creativity and reasoning. It converted us into paleolithic human beings. So I decided that (besides the awful sensation of being high) if MJ was going to make me talk like an idiot, I'd better stay away from it. Much, much later I discovered that MJ had quite nasty side effects on the brain and the genes, so I guess I was just plain lucky I didn't smoke again.

    My son and daughter don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, and make me go out to the front porch when I take out my Cuban cigar for smoking when we watch the Simpsons. We enjoy the Simpsons because it is a faithful picture of how sick the American society has become. You might not be aware of the fact, because you are immersed in the medium without recognizing it, like the fish that only become aware there is something called "water" when it is taken out of it. Did you know that artists are the only ones that first recognize the changes occurring in society? (According to Marshall McLuhan, of course, and I agree with him).

    So please excuse me for my intruding. Next time I see somebody discussing with emotional arguments as a basis for keep doing something that harm their health, I'll stay out of the matter.

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  7. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Scilosopher,, no, I am so sorry I've missed that.

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    Must have been a great episode! Maybe I'll see it anyway, when it's in the rerun. I really hope so...

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    What happened with Homer? Now I'm curious...

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  8. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    Great smilies!

    banshee: congratulations for your great animated .gifs. Those smilies are beautiful! Where did you get those from?
     
  9. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    Edufer,
    You knew some interesting people (though Jack Kerouac is the only whos work I'm really familiar with). I like lectures in the sense of talks on academic subjects which one chooses to go to. The type of lecture I was objecting to was the type where someone preaches at you how you should think in a nonconversational fashion. I actually appreciate primary information and reviews on marijuana research, but much of what I have seen does is clearly politically biased so I tend to not believe the conclusions that are summed up for general consumption.

    I never said I thought smoking pot was all good. I have enjoyed it on many levels. It has made me say and do many stupid things, but it has also made me reach many profound realizations that are still profound once sober. It has also helped me get in better touch with many aspects of myself and my emotions. By the same token it clearly has degraded my memory in practice, though during the windows I've quite that effect has always gone away. I also don't remember my dreams when I smoke and I miss them.

    I think avoiding substance abuse including alcohol, cigarettes, and even caffeine (especially some coffee drinkers I know) is highly respectable. I wish the role of alcohol consumption was not central to socialization the way it is. By the same token in a society that is so ingrained with ideals of freedom based on rebellion I think that the legal issue often clouds the process of deciding whether consuming any drug is beneficial. Underage drinkers are much worse about binge drinking than those who can attain it legally ...
     
  10. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Edufer, I apologize for the nasty reply I gave on your post. Most of that, I already know.

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    I've mentioned in earlier posts, that it's case, to use the Marijuana not all day long, like some people I know, do. When used in the proper way, it brings less damage and violence then Alcohol, for instance. I am not going to repeat myself.

    Marijuana has proven to be a good pain killer by certain diseases. It really takes a lot of pain away. Of course, the main reason people use it, is for pleasure. The medical world has discovered Marijuana to be as a good solution for people who suffer from chronical pain, caused by nerve pain, cancers and arthritis, for instance. Guess it is better to use marijuana then the chemical drugs, which contain a lot more "garbage", so to say. Now I didn't mention everything here, for then I'm repeating myself, again, and I don't want to repeat myself every time. Ok?

    The Smilies are from another Forum, where I post so every once in a while. They are good, aren't they? I really like these Smilies very much...

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  11. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    Just to point out the semi-obvious ... it's 4/20!
     
  12. Mostly Harmless Thrower of Coconuts Registered Senior Member

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    Well, i hope we can revive this thread, its very interesting. Does anyone know whether hashish is worst for you than MJ. like, say for memory loss.

    i've found that, certainly, i;m slower and less motivated when i've smoked, but when off, the clouds pass.

    i worry that it effects memory, but dont know whether it affects short-term memory loss only in the short-term, or also long term, i.e. is yr short term memory shot for life.
     
  13. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    791
    Hashish and memory loss

    Mostly Harmless: go to this link and read all about the effects of Marijuana and hash on the brain cells, memory and long term effects of cannabis:

    <A HREF="http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/INGLES/MarihuanaUse.html"> <b>"Consequences of Acute and Chronic Cannabis Use"</b></A>

    There are other links, but I think this is serious enough to give you a general idea. I hope it will be useful.
     
  14. Mostly Harmless Thrower of Coconuts Registered Senior Member

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    Ehh, your link/paper seems to vear more towards the idea that cannabis is bad for the schizo, hey, I AGREE. Probably not a good idea.

    but in this day and age of decreasing entertainment, where t.v. is the only one which replaces outdoor activities, i think your brain gets tired and prefers what you refer to as "side effects"

    please remember, most people use cannabis, for those very side effects you say are harmful, the hallucinations, the tendency to talk rubbish. what i want to know is how much it will hurt me in the future.

    i dont want to encourage anyone to smoke, because since its not easily available, people are not happy with the just one hit, and go to stronger drugs to get that. i've been there.

    i just think, right or wrong, its an escape, like drinking, like watching t.v (which i could argue is more harmful). like smoking cigarettes whihc are CERTAINLY MORE ADDICTIVE.

    I agree its a mental crutch. and thats not good. but is it a physical one too? not nec.
     
  15. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    Hasjiesj make you more slow in acting yes. At least, that's what I've found using it. I prefer Marijuana above the use of Hasjiesj, because on MJ you can do whatever you want without feeling so "slow", so to say.

    Probably it will cause some memory loss over the years, if you use it a lot. Hallucinations you get by eating it, as in "Space-Cake". That gives you a real trip. I don't agree with the saying, that a person is gonna use the Harder Drugs, just because they smoke Hasjiesj or MJ. That's a choice you make yourself. It's not a natural follow up from smoking Cannabis.

    Of course it is "bad", not as bad as alcohol and smoking cigarettes are. Keep in mind that most people are addicted in a way to Caffeine, alcohol and cigarettes and that's seen as a normal behaviour, while the use of Cannabis is illegal and therefor has a "bad" name. It would be better, really, to legalize Cannabis. It's hard to get yes, in most countries, this makes it much more attractive to people, especially the younger people who want to know what it's like.

    IMHO, the memory loss is not as bad as some people seem to think. Think of the memory loss which occurs to people using alcohol. It's much worse. I have been smoking Cannbis for years and years and my memory is perfect.

    So, cut the BS and relax. MJ is a nice pleasure herb, useful in the medical world too nowadays.

    No withdrawal symptoms too, when you quit smoking Cannabis. Maybe the users who smoke it literally all day long, think they are having withdrawal symptoms, that's more in their mind, not really physical.

    Used it for 22 years, every day (not all day long). I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good.

    I like to smoke Cannabis, though and if the opportunity comes along, I will certainly smoke a good joint....
     
  16. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    I have been smoking Cannabis for years and years and my memory is perfect.

    Yes, but that does not say much in regards to your capacity for logic and reason. What happened to that ?

    No withdrawal symptoms too, when you quit smoking Cannabis. Maybe the users who smoke it literally all day long, think they are having withdrawal symptoms, that's more in their mind, not really physical.

    Oh really ? So the fact that you're introducing a new chemical into your body day after day, month after month, year after year, will not have any physical withdrawal symptoms once the body stops receiving the chemical ? I suppose you also believe there is no long term damage to your lungs either.

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    IMHO, the memory loss is not as bad as some people seem to think.

    You're deluding yourself. Memory loss is extremely bad. It is the destruction of brain cells. And no, I will not resort to the obvious comedic remarks you've set yourself up for with this statement. I'll leave those to our readers imaginations.

    Used it for 22 years, every day (not all day long). I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good.

    Withdrawal is the least of your worries if you've been smoking for 22 years. IMO, you are trying to justify the consumption of a drug that has taken hold of your life. You can't stop because you're addicted and can only resort to justification. That constant cough and wheezing should give you some indication a physical problem exists. The thought of smoking another joint within 30 minutes of finishing one should give you some indication of addiction.
     
  17. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    791
    (Q), man! You really said it all to poor Banshee... You shouldn't be so hard with him, after all, he's just being honest by telling he was addicted to MJ for 22 years. It is hard for anyone to recognize that something he did during so much time was not completely right. (Or perhaps Banshee thinks it was OK to smoke MJ daily for 22 years?. Smoking 3 joints a day for 22 years means 24,090 joints, at 3 grams per joint that is 72,270 grams, or 72 kilos and a quarter of marihuana!

    You really think 72 kilos of trash didn't harm your body, your brain, your liver, your kidneys, stomach, lungs, bladder, prostate, etc.? If you think that marihuna is not trash just because it is a "natural" product, you should remeber that tobacco and alcohol are also "natural" products.

    Alcohol is not natural? You should see then that documentary on those South African animals (elephants, ostriches, mandrils, etc) getting drunk at the end of the spring, when they eat all that rotten fruit in the floor that had fermented. Was very funny seeing the monkeys holding their heads suffering from a terrible hangover, and the elephants and ostriches stumbling along and falling to the ground.

    But the point is: haschish is much stronger than marihuana. Hash is the pure, concentrated resin, whose potency has increased 50 times in the last strains of marihuana. Hash is collected as an exudation in the marihuana leaves at the field.

    Cannabis, as stated in the study I linked you to, has a strong effect on <b>short term memory</b>, not long term memory. That is why students have problems in learning when they smoke: they cannot retain (remember) what they've read or listened. And learning is based in memory: <b>no short term memory, no learning.</b>

    You keep smoking cannabis, and you'll remember your child days, but will forget to meet an associate at an appointment made yesterday. Not too dangerous. But you can get fired from your job. And that means trouble. You won´t get more money for dope.
    Terrible!
     
  18. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Marehuana is natural. Therefore, it is safe.

    Curare is natural. Therefore, it is safe.

    That said, I did not find Edufer's study credible, given the author. Nor have I seen very good evidence that marjuana (I'll spell it right some day

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    ) is any more harmfull than tobacco, long term.

    However, marejuana - oh bloody hell, pot, contains 'tar'. The consequences of tar in cigarettes have been documented.

    So, no, it's not harmless. It all depends on how much harm the individual is willing to risk. I'm sure my practice of drinking straight vodka is bad for my liver.....

    Yet to live without any harmfull substances is to live a rather - boring - life. Everything involves risk.

    All things in moderation.

    P.S: Almost any substance can be addictive for certain individuals. Even Sciforums.

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    P.P.S:
    "Withdrawal is the least of your worries if you've been smoking for 22 years. IMO, you are trying to justify the consumption of a drug that has taken hold of your life. You can't stop because you're addicted and can only resort to justification."

    Q, Banshee has stated that she has stopped:

    " I quit with it a while ago and am still alive, not having withdrawal symptoms at all and life without MJ is good."

    Thus not addicted. Frankly, I find the whole 'addict' rhetoric rather annoying, but that's a different topic.
     
  19. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    I never smoked a joint within 30 minutes. And oh man, MJ was the least of my worries. I am not trying to justify anything, for the simple reason, I don't have to justify smoking MJ.

    What "constant cough and wheezing" are you referring to?

    I agree with Xev, even Sciforums and the rest of internet can become quite an addiction. Everything in life, you do too much, is not healthy (Q).

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    Never bothered to read this whole thread, did you?
     
  20. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Hahaha,

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    It figures. Did you use a calculator Edufer? Jesus, what a BS. 3 grams a joint? That's a lot! Ever heard of Shag Edufer, or loose tobacco with rolling papers? Those rolling papers are pretty small, then you use a little filter, made of carton, in it too, so in no way will there fit 3 grams in such a thingy. It's called a Reefer, not a joint. Doesn't make any difference though, the name. The size makes a big difference.

    My goodness and I just used all my fingers and toes and came to the conclusion that it's been 26 years, I've used MJ. Oh my, re-calculate Edufer!

    (For your information and a better calculation, I used 5 grams every 5 - 6 days. Have fun...

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    )
     
  21. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    Banshee, yes I used a calculator. I am not an <i>idiot savant</i> that can multiply five digits by four digits and come with a correct answer. I still can add long columns without the aid of a pocket calculator, as most people do this days. They have forgotten to add or substract. People nowadays are intellectually lazy, and this is reflected in the state of the world (among many other things). Doing mental calculations keeps your brain in good shape. The function makes the organ. As Descartes said: "I think, thus I exist". I think when you stop using your brain you cease to exist (as a human being) and become an animal or an object.

    By the way, have you ever used a scale to weigh the pot you rolled? As a matter of fact I have not, but will do it as soon as I can get hold of some pot. (Not easy to get in the environment I usually prowl). Before quitting cigarrete smoking, (back in the early 70s) I used to roll tobacco in my trips into the jungle (as cigarrette packs didn't stand the humidity, rains, soaking conditions we always encountered), so I had an excellent technique. When we were kids, in Argentina was used a little and simple machine to roll your own. It was called "Banderita" (little flag) because it resembled that, and made rolling tobacco a piece of cake. But what always marveled and amazed me was the way our "gauchos" (the Argentine version of cowboys), roll their cigarretes with just one hand, and light them afterwards while they are riding in a horse driving cattle to the markets.
    My God! Are you a <b>SHE</b>, Banshee? Have I been arguing with a woman all these months?. I must have known that somebody showing to much emotion and feelings in discussions couldn't be nothing else than a woman. You beat us poor cavemen males in that field... Hulk, hulk!

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    Sorry, Xev, that was not a study, but just recommendations given by somebody who read and analized a lot of scientific studies made by reputable scientists. My own conclusions differ a little (but not too much) from the author's conclusions. I don't think pot will make you schizophrenic or make you commit suicide --<b>if you are not a schizophrenic already.</b> However, the conclusions by the scientists mentioned in the page, is that cannabis will worsen the condition of schizophrenics and might induce them to suicide. And that is an entirely different story.

    By the way, I don´t know the author of the page, so I cannot give my opinion about him, but what he says about the concern parents should have related to their children's habits with drugs, are quite sound in my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong, but given the high incidence of suicides among pot smokers (10%) makes me think that the author is very close to the truth.
     
  22. scilosopher Registered Senior Member

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    Edufer,
    My guess is all the statistics are simply correlative. That is to say it could just as easily be that most people who become suicidal experiment with or use drugs. That would certainly make sense too. You don't value your life so what is there to lose. Maybe you can dull the pain.

    Pot is certainly not completely healthy, but neither is McDonalds and many dessert foods. Eating food you don't need to which is unhealthy simply for the flavour can be argued in many ways to be just as bad as taking drugs. In fact foods have many chemicals that affect your psychological state.

    I think evidence makes drinking just as bad or worse than smoking pot. How many people do you know that have headaches in the morning if they don't drink coffee? Or ritalin use in kids. Or other anti-depressants? Or store buyable speed for dropping weight?

    Society accepts wide-scale consumption drugs and engages in unhealthy behaviors that are much more damaging on a wide scale than marijuana and all the preaching is pretty silly. Anyone who does things without thinking about the consequences gets what's coming, but in many ways I have no doubt that marijuana has improved my life. I may have passed a time when it was good, I may be able to use it more healthfully, and there may have been preferable alternatives, but one can never know.

    Q,
    Memory loss is in no way known to always be mediated by the death of brain cells. There are equally valid scientific explanations that require no damage. It is known that one remembers things better in environments and states of mind similar to those that were coincident with the memory formation.

    Most people don't take tests high. I have. When I did enough of the studying high it was better to take the test high. By the same token, when I was high I often would wander off on tangents related to the material I was studying. I would often stop studying. Discipline regardless of your weaknesses is the important part.

    Sometimes my blazed musings were beneficial during the test, and sometimes not. I feel that it helped me interconnect the various ideas I was learning about better than many others and have a better big picture view. Maybe I'm warped by excessive drug use and rationalization. But I can honestly say I don't think so and my environment has always responded in ways that I feel my view of myself and the world is pretty dead on. In school there are many criteria that would predict my scholastic success better than marijuana consumption.

    EDIT: Though I have to admit the joint occurence of disinterest and marijuana consumption would be devastating to my success in a class.
     
  23. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

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    McDonald's and pot

    Of course, there are many chemicals in the environment that will affect your psychological state. However, I must point out that the fundamentals things are <b>"dose"</b> and <b>"toxin potency"</b>. I really don't believe that a hamburger from McDonalds or a vanilla cone is as harmfull to my health as smoking a marihuana joint or a cigarette, or drinking gin or absynth. Drinking wine or beer in moderate amounts have proved to have healthy effects on humans. Getting stoned with booze will deliver you to cirrhosis or polyneuritis. Eating hamburgers in moderate amounts (one or two a day) will help in keeping your alive, depending on the quality of the ingredients. Rotten meat is unhealthy, fresh meat is good in moderate amounts, though, because it has essential aminoacids not found in other foods.

    But by all means, smoking marihuana or tobacco are not healthy at all, although it may serve to cheer you up or sooth your neerves. There is a price for everything you do. Nothing is free in this marvelous world. You must pay a price (as stated by the 1st Law of Thermodynamics) nothing is lost, nothing is created; everything is transformed. Chemicals in pot and tobacco are more deleterous to your health than chemicals in hamburgers or food, at levels commonly found in our daily lives. Those chemicals in pot are more potent than those in meat or vanilla ice cream, and will transform themselves in nasty things in your lungs or in your brain. No arguing on that.

    If pot makes you happy, keep smoking.. perhaps you will be lucky as my father was (he smoked until he died at 73 from prostate cancer, a disease not related to prostate cancer). But as "Dirty" Harry used to say: "Do you feel lucky today?". I would add: "Will you still be lucky tomorrow?".
     

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