A-hole Hunters or the Right to Arm Bears

I saw something very interesting or disturbing, depending on POV, the other day. I live in a rural setting and as a result tend to see a lot of wildlife as I drive along country roads. This day I happened to notice 7 deer at the side of the road. They looked agitated and spooked so I slowed down to wait for them to decide whether to cross the road or not. I've never witnessed deer around here in such an agitated state as they appeared quite nervous and were jumping around a lot which seemed unusual. I looked around to see if there was a natural predator chasing them. Just then I heard the roar of machines, 3 ATV's no less, the new horse of the hunting class. Two of the guys were holding their hunting rifles in one hand like John Wayne, I assume ready to shoot on the run if necessary. I took a chance and stayed closed to the deer so they wouldn't shoot. Fortunately they didn't and backed off.

What I'm aimimg at here is more or less the psychology of the hunt. There must be a hormone or two I lack because I just can't see this as adrenalin pumping sport. You watch these guys on TV and they're practically having an orgasm when they drill Bambi's mother or some other 4 legged furball. Some of these guy must be wearing condoms just so they don't spoil their camouflage suits. Why camoufalage when all your doing is using the sound of an ATV to scare the living shit out of docile creatures so you can herd them out into the open for some easy target practice is beyond me?

This is sport? At least native Americans herded buffalo over cliffs for survival. Is modern technology ruining the hunt? As in every endeavor there are good and bad so with hunters it's no different. Are the ATV's making the below average hunter a better killer? It probably won't be long before these guys ruin it for the rest of the hunters out there, bad enough you can't walk in the woods anymore without fear of getting shot, and now avoid being run over. How about the destruction of forested areas by ATV's by their irresponsible owners.

If you want to hunt then at least give the hunted a fighting chance. As I type this there is a kid in the field behind my property riding an motorized enduro bike through the thickets. Does he know what kind of destruction he is causing to life underfoot? At least he hasn't learned to drive with one hand holding the shotgun yet.

 

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Don't let the actions of a few idiots and jerks make you angry at the whole of a society or group. Keep a proper perspective.

And just so you know, my guess is that doing what those guys did was illegal. Why didn't you get descriptions, plate numbers, types of machines and report them to the authorities? ...instead of coming here and wasting our time with this? Unless, of course, it's to stir up the shit once again about gun control, gun banning, etc????

Baron Max

 

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If I may borrow the style and typical post of one often posting here, with intitals BM:

And what the shit is wrong with that?

 

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As you can see by the number of responses, Billy .......hmm?

Baron Max

 

Jeezuz Baron, sorry to waste your valuable time. As far as I know the ATV's where I live don't require plates and I was too busy making sure I didn't get shot....I guess my powers of observation went for a shit.

I have no desire to stir up gun control. I'm too big a boy to know that rascal ain't worth the time(besides I don't want to waste yours). I wasn't even considering talking gun control but I sense that must be a touchy subject for you. Don't know how you got that impression.

My concern is, and I guess you didn't get it, was more the damage to the environment caused by obviously uncaring fools and their careless misuse of guns is also a sore spot for me. I don't wish to paint all hunters with the same brush but I do question if their methods and actions are sporting.

 

Sporting? Riding around on noisy, stinky atv's while hunting?
That gives the deer a bit of an edge, don't you think?
Far more sporting than a man on foot silently and skillfully stalking his prey.

By the way.
People eat meat.
I prefer elk, myself, as deer is generally pretty gamey. Elk has a better flavor in my opinion.
But, in the end, it comes down to recipes.

 

Ahh, but you see, in your post, that's exactly, precisely, how it was worded .....and I suspect, that's exactly how you meant it.

Baron Max

 

Personally I don't give a rat's ass if somebody hunts or not. Using ATV's to spook deer out of the woods into the sights of waiting guns isn't exactly giving the deer an edge.

I love animals, they're delicious.

 

According to your description, I think it does.

If the intent was to spook the deer into the open.. then the best course of action would be to have the atv's act like hounds and beaters and to have the huntsmen waiting outside for the deer to come to them.

You seem to describe reckless idiocy.
The atv's will lead to hunting accidents. Decreased aim. Will scare the deer away, not necessarily into a position which they can be hunted more effectively.

I just can't see this form of hunting being more effective than a man stalking his prey.
I don't hunt, personally. Although I have from time to time.
But, my boss does and he prepares for his hunt. He walks the woods. Looking for deer sign. He knows his territory. Knows his animal. Knows where he needs to go to take his prey.
He is a hunter. And he is far more deadly to his prey than these hooting apes you describe.

 

Well, geez, isn't that what you want, for god's sake! Enough accidents will help kill off all those idiots and then you won't have to worry so much about 'em! Ain't that what you want ...to decrease the idiots on ATVs??? Hell, you should be happy as hell.

Baron Max

 

Do you have any idea what you're saying or do you just pop into threads randomly and attribute random stances to posters and respond as if they were taking said stance?

Because, your post is a complete non sequitur.

Try reading the thread next time. You might appear less foolish.

 

Yes!

Baron Max

 

I thought so.
Because if you'd read the thread, you'd find that I advocate hunting.
I just think that the atv guys aren't really being very effective hunters.
I suppose they can console themselves on the low kill count by the fact that at least they had a good time rolling around the countryside on their atv's hooting and hollering and brandishing their firearms at the sky.
Probably getting drunk too.

Meanwhile, real hunters will be butchering their prey and getting the meat ready for freezing.

 

I think you're mistaken invert.
I get what you're saying, but real hunters often like to place themselves at a disadvantage. While buffoons and larrikins wrecklessly try to kill anything they can.
Unfortunately it's alot easier to shoot deer than people would have you believe.
And you actually can flush them out with atvs and send them into a panic and shoot them like fish in a barrel. Unlike the mighty hare, deer just aren't that confident and cocky with their evasive abilities under extreme situations.
They do panic, and their performance does disintegrate under unnaturally stressfull circumstances.
If you behave like a normal predator, tracking them down, reading their sign on the terrain, learning their habits and trying to sneak up on them etc, they understand that and they're adept at engaging in predator/prey contests which have that kind of pace.
When you hunt like that you're competing with the quarry on their level and you can feel them matching their wits with yours, and the reality is they win alot. Most of the time.
This is the point of sportive hunting.
Competing with the animal at their own game, being at a disadvantage and delighting in that tiny chance of success in relation to the great likelyhood that they will escape.
The majority of hunters are out to kill things and maximise their chances of success through the use of technology, tricking or confusing the quarry.
An extreme example is trapping or poisoning. The people who enjoy these pasttimes are incapable of understanding sportsmanship in hunting. People generally do these simply because they want to kill their targetted animal, they want it gone plain and simple. Generally hunting is for people who enjoy the hunt, moreso than the certainty of meat or pelt, and therefore a higher likelyhood of failure is actually desirable.

In the forest laws of the middle ages, trapping was the lowest least honourable form of hunting and was punishable by death in some forests, waiting in ambush for unsuspecting quarry was the second lowest, stalking quarry with a bow was slightly more admirable but by far the most noble of pursuits was hunting quarry with dogs.
Ironically the most restricted form of hunting today.
The old laws to me make sense, probably because I understand animals. There is nothing cruel and unusual from a prey animals perspective to be pursued by dogs, it's their thing that they do - evade predators, it's life for them and they actually love it.
They've been sculpted over a millenia to excell at the task and naturally they've come to enjoy it like an athlete adores his chosen sport. You can't be good at something without enjoying it, and so a passion for the chase was perhaps the primary evolutionary demand on commonly persecuted prey animals.
Ofcourse they don't like losing and being caught/killed, but they live for the feeling of successfully evading a predator. It's worth the risk of failure for the glory of success.
And they're good at it. If they are caught by these means it's only natural and right that they die, because they're failing at being a good deer (or hare or boar).
Nothing could be more natural than being run down and despatched by a dog, for prey animals.

I say prey animals because it simply does not apply to other animals, animals who have not evolved in accordance with the demands of being targetted by predators.
I disagree with hunting predators such as bears or big cats. If I could devise an ethical way to do it it would be with rodeo bulls as bait which then successfully gore the attacking predator to death. That I wouldn't have a problem with, because it would be in accordance with the natural way of things.
But this is obviously totally impractical and as such I just don't think people should engage in hunting predators, there's nothing at all correct about worrying a predator with dogs or shooting it in it's confused face.
People attracted to hunting predators to me expose a lacking when it comes to understanding the true essence of the hunt.
As do people who chase deers on atvs with rifles.

I think sportsmanlike hunting has to stem from a love for animals and the wilderness, to the point where you just can't stand it any more and you need to respectfully participate in the glorious game of nature.
With all our modern conveniences and advantages, getting the "sporting" part of it right is so evasive, with such a thin margin for error, where so many factors need to be taken into consideration that I generally believe most people should be outlawed from hunting.
Again they had it right in the middle ages, where only informed noblemen were legally allowed to hunt the forests and peasants were tortured to death for daring to dream they had the mental capacity to do it right.
Robin hood being portayed as a hero sickens me to my stomach for this reason (I've never had the time to explain why I hate robin hood to anyone before, feels good to get it off my chest).

Hunting for sport can be the most noble pursuit a man can engage in, if he knows what he's doing. If he doesn't, as is most often the case (today especially), it is man at his absolute ugliest.

 

Noble sentiments, Lou.

Predator against prey, creeping through the bush. The leaves rustle. A twig cracks. Wiping the sweat from your brow, you spot your quarry in the clearing up ahead then - with nerves of steel and a burning, driving hunger in the pit of your stomach - you poise to strike and KAA-BLAM!!!.

Damn... missed.

Again, KAA-BLAM!!!.

Damn, missed again.

KAA-BLAM!!! KAA-BLAM!!! With the instinct of millennia you reach into your kitbag and, not daring to breathe, silently remove your portable rocket launcher and a box of tactical nuclear missiles and...

Personally, I'd like to see the odds stacked a little further in favour of the deer. I think it would be better if hunters just used a big, serrated knife - like Stallone in Rambo - rather than a long-range missile weapon. And if they can't catch dinner? Well, the laws of predator and prey say that they probably weren't meant to.

In fact, why not just rely on what God equipped you with? Hands and bare teeth. Catch 'em if you can, wrestle 'em to the ground and, with your legs wrapped round it's own, position yourself for that final suffocating bite?

That would be a sport worthy of any nobleman. Why, I'd even pay to see it!

Sorry Lou, but I saw Bambi twice, and just can't help feeling that killing the things for sport is wrong. For food, yes - if you live in the wilds and there are no reputable supermarkets in your area. But for sport? No. It's not natural. If it were, hunters wouldn't have to rely on guns or spears or other long-range weaponry, as well as all that other technology you speak of. I appreciate that there is a difference of degree between the methods you advocate, on the one hand - noble sentiments, like I said - and riding round whooping it up on ATVs on the other. But, in the end, it amounts to the same thing: killing for pleasure. This is the main difference between hunters and natural predators. Predators kill because they have to; hunters kill for pleasure. For the thrill, or because there's nothing on TV.

Do it Lou, by all means. Don't let me stop you - but don't fool yourself into thinking that there's anything noble about it.

Click here for a list of alternative sports that you might enjoy.

Can you say anthropomorphism?

 

Most deer populations in the US need to be hunted by people too keep their populations down. We wiped out all their natural predators.

 

I knew someone would say that at some point. "They're vermin, therefore they must be destroyed".

Yes, well they said that about the Jews.

OK, I'll be serious.

Where the population needs culling, at least 'hunting' then serves some kind of purpose. But let's not pretend that there's anything noble about it. At best, it's a mundane necessity; at worst, it's a fairly ugly way to amuse yourself - no matter what method you use.

 

I think killing shit's pretty sweet.

 

Ah. The glories of hyperbole.
Of course, You make assumptions that the hunter is a poor marksman to begin with. Not very sporting of you. After all, you are here seeking out your prey as well, yes?

How about bow hunting? Does that suit your fancy a bit more?
I think it'd be cool to go spear hunting. Maybe with an atl-atl.

You're forgetting something.
Brains.

You were saying something about anthropomorphism?

Wrong? What does that mean?
Natural? What does that mean?
I guess that man is naturally meant to live as a scavenger? Or off fruits and berries or something?

Do you know many supermarkets that sell deer meat? I know one place where I can buy all sorts of wild game meat. I could even buy crocodile and buffalo meat there if I so desired. Does that make it better? To buy your meat from some store rather than getting it yourself?

Do you think that by losing that connection with the derivation of meat from a living thing rather than just some cellophane package in a store you're being natural?
Animals are still killed.
In huge numbers.

But... you feel better because you don't have to think of Bambi every time you take a big bite out of that hamburger.

I say you're the one with a lack of respect for life.
Perhaps if you'd ever killed an animal for food you'd have a bit more respect for life.

Are you serious?
You really don't believe that predators enjoy killing their prey?
I don't suppose you've ever seen a cat torturing a mouse or a bird?
Instincts spur the behaviour of an animal by emotional cues. Predators LOVE killing. Love it to their very core.

To say otherwise is... unnatural.

Actually, I don't think it is anthropomorphism. Animals enjoy following their instincts. This is the goad. If they didn't derive satisfaction from them, then they wouldn't be likely to follow them.

Ever wonder why it feels so good to take a shit or piss?

Yes. So much more better to just buy your meat from a grocery store. That way you can separate yourself from any guilt about killing animals for food. You can convince yourself that you're somehow morally righteous while those who actually kill their own meat are disgusting devils.

What do you think of the farmer who butchers his own meat?
Does it disgust you to think of a farmer laughing at a chicken running around with his head cut off?

Perhaps you should be a vegetarian.

 

I know. One other thing: where there's an overpopulation, hunting becomes more a case of shooting fish in a barrel. That's why I put it in inverted commas above. I don't think Lou would hold this in the same regard as crawling naked through the grass with a knife clenched between your teeth.