Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mountain_Fire77, Nov 11, 2006.
Heliocentric: some examples would no go amiss. now would they.
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Obviously *some*thing was functioning, if there was an experience. You call it presumptuous to think that an error was made but not to assume that something supernatural occurred?
And the data doesn't lean toward anything mystical or supernatural. It most assuredly leans toward a physical, natural explanation for the experiences that people refer to as OBE/NDE. It's recently been shown, for instance, that NDE was an experience localized in the temporal lobe and is a positive coping activity of the brain to a life-threatening event.
Experiences of NDE are induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe during neurosurgery of epilepsy patients, when carbon dioxide levels are increased, and during high-G acceleration as with fighter pilots. It can even be induced with the valsalva maneuver preceeded by hyperventilation. Researchers have been able to induce NDE with ketamine by blocking the NMDA receptor and endorphine, serotonin, and enkephalin have been shown to have an effect on NDE as well. And, speaking of chemicals, it's also been shown that LSD, mescaline and other hallucinagins can induce NDE/OBE, futher demonstrating the experiences to be chemical, not supernatural.
Blackmore, Susan (1991) Near-death experiences: in or out of the body? Skeptical Inquirer, 16, 34-45.
Britton, WB and Bootzin, RR (2004) Near-Death Experiences and the Temporal Lobe. Psychological Science, 15(4), 254-258
Greyson, B. (1998). Biological aspects of near-death experiences. Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 42, 14-32.
Jansen, K (1996). Neuroscience, ketamine and the near-death experience: the role of glutamate and the NMDA-receptor. In: The Near-Death Experience: A Reader; Bailey & Yates, eds. New York: Routledge Press, 265-282.
Lempert, T; Bauer, M; Schmidt, D. (1994). Syncope and near-death experience. Lancet, 344, 829-830.
Whinnery, JE; Whinnery, AM. (1990) Acceleration-induced loss of consciousness. Archives of Neurology, 47, 764-767
huh? i dont think anything supernatural is work at either, whatever is going on im sure its quite natural we just dont entirely understand it yet.
Agreed, whatever is occuring is entirely natural.
Well its been shown that the experience can be triggered by messing with a specific part of the brain yes, although why the experience occurs atall is still anyones guess.
Is the drug the trigger of an internal/external experience or is the drug the experience in itself? i think all these questions apply just as much to OBEs, and im quite willing to give equal time to each possibility.
Im really not completely sold on any one OBE interpretation as yet to be honest, alot of the data suggests that the bulk of the experience is based on cultural biases (religious figures specifically relevant to the individuals traditions) while certain core elements are 'hard-wired' (tunnel of light, feeling of love/universal peace, being attached to the body by a cord etc).
Alot of the data also suggests that the individual having the OBE is not truely 'out of their body' as people offen report furniture/people that arnt even in the room.
On the other hand people experiencing OBE's have at times, with startling accuracy, reported conversations/events in ajoining rooms, details of their opperation that they could not possibly have been privy too.
At this stage im going to have to say i simply dont know exactly why these experiences occur, if they have an external reality or purely internal, or if these experiences represent some kind of enmeshed subjective/objective experience.
It has always to be remembered that these are 'near death' experiences. If you die, you are dead and remain so. People who have been resuscitated never really died in the sense of it being irreversible.
This being the case, it is impossible to say whether people are having hallucinations because of brain malfunction due to lack of oxygen or drug induced or whatever. You would need someone who was really dead (such as for a couple of days or more) to be more certain that what they said reflected a true experience of 'somewhere else' or other post death exerience whatever you might call that. I have seen no hard evidence of any recent such resurrections so I am inclined to treat any such accounts like this very skeptically.
And you learned this where?
What proof have you of this assumption?
Whoa, slow down....you haven't proved or disproved anything.
You may have a point in this area, but still proof is not impossible...hallucinations don't correctly guess what someone across town is praying word for word at the exact time you say you heard it in your OBE.
Be careful here....So just how long would a person have to be dead to convince you then if not 15 minites....?an hour? twelve hours? a couple of days you say?
The bible says no to that.
It says those who would not believe the law and the prophets for the word of God in this life would not believe though someone raised from the dead.
So I don't think a couple of days are going to convince everyone either, some maybe but not all.
I just recently had a near death experience.
Brain surgery to remove a subdural hemotoma, caused by a massive head injury that left me on life support for three days, the ICU for another week and the hospital for two more weeks.
As the physical body gets weaker, the spiritual one becomes more prominate by comparison and more noticeable.
You do feel an overshadowing effect.
I don't claim to have died, I didn't see a tunnel, but I awoke with a fresh perspective on things, and was fortunate enough to walk out of the hospital on my own two feet.
So please don't think its something so simple as to be to dismissed with the wave of a hand.
I'm afraid you haven't got things figured out like you think.
I thought the video was awesome, and have heard similar descriptions of the place beyond the curtain of time which lead me to believe he's telling the truth.
I give it five stars.
It's a "must see" in my book.
I'd rather death than eternity with that Psychopath.
Naysayers aside, I thought the man's story had 'the ring of truth to it'. I would like to see, in response to skinwalker, where scientists invoke a OBE/NDE in a patient and have that person wake up profoundly changed.
Not just with reports of tunnels and such, I mean with an experience that leads to the person changing their life completely forever.
Even if the patient knows that they are being induced, will it change them? This man seemed reasonable, could have explained it as toxins in his blood and stress, but the experience would not let him, apparently.
Eternity is time without beginning or end. Basically eternity is the absence of time. The Bible says our 'souls' go to heaven. Do you know what your soul is? Where it is? So basically the afterlife involves the absence of time, and our souls, which hasn't been defined by science (we don't know what it is). Plus a God that created the universe. My point is that we are in for a huge surprise, one that we can't imagine right now, only describe with terms that make sense here. That is why it is easily debunked. Eternal death would be a real downer, one that cannot be imagined as we take life for granted (we have always had it).
If you watched the video, the speaker said near the beginning that his 'hell' experience was all it took to change him completely. I believe him. That statement is easily overlooked, but was the main message, IMO.
Your lack of education is criminal.
Help me out-teach me something- what do you know?
one can only die once, otherwise its not death at all. Heart stopping, doesnt mean someone died.
The definition of "death" includes "permanent." Physicians make mistakes just like the rest of us. If one of them declares a person "dead" and the person subsequently regains consciousness, it does not mean that he was dead. It means that the doctor made a mistake.
umm, yeah i believe it does. well for all intents and purposes the duration the heart is not pumping is in fact a dead subject.
well...the heart stopped for 3 seconds...and than doctors started a mechanical heart that pumped the blood extraveneously...noone died...
Exactly, Athiests worship nothingness and Thiests worship everything. The difference between them? none. If you tend to worship, you'll worship a statue in the name of God or the Devil, or you'll worship the void in the name of Athiesm.
so what am I to worship than? everything or nothing?:bugeye:
wrong, atheist dont worship.
thats in their minds, we can all imagine something, why not the FSM.
the former has a rational base the latter an irrational.
or any other imaginary thing you can think of, including the FSM.
what void, atheist dont worship.
is'nt it vastly more reasonable to be objective rather than subjective.
theres no point in hiding yourself in a cocoon for the rest of your life, it's wiser to think for yourself.
You are insane. Theists worship their delusion and are ignorant to everything else. Atheists don't worship, but they way you said it makes it sound like atheists are selfish and careless of their surroundings - so not the case when you compare them to their theist counterparts.
Saying athiest and thiests are inherently the same is like saying those who cheat before examinations and those who study are the same; they both want a good test score.
I doubt any of you could be an expert on both sides of the issue.
There for one are no all inclusive descriptions that apply for either.
For example there are at least two types of each I can think of...
Theists, can be those that believe in a god but are too easily convinced and without any real revelation are deceived into a false religious system.
Then there are those that have had a real supernatural experience apart from and outside of any man-made religious organization.
For Atheists, there could be those that would refuse to believe in any god no mater what, for the principles sake alone....
and those that are just waiting and have yet to see something real enough to personally convince them, which may be better than someone too easily convinced by some clever lie, and lured into some false man-made system.
In any case the subject here is whether or not this guy really saw what he said he saw.
If he did....would that fact change anything about your life?
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