A Fifth Fundamental Force

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Magical Realist, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Mainstream physicists general assume there are only 4 fundamental forces in the universe. But on what basis? Is it entailed in some equation? Could there be a fifth fundamental force? What are some candidates for a fifth force? How about quintessence?

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  3. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    OK should this be in another sub-forum?
     
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  5. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Cesspool?
     
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  7. someguy1 Registered Senior Member

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    Whatever holds velcro together.
     
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  8. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    Hooks and loops.
     
  9. river

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    Scalar
     
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    What's scalar mean?
     
  11. river

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    Scalar means that this force has no direction , its not a vector

    In more advanced thinking upon energy , scalar is a longitudinal wave , three dimensionally
     
  12. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Oy. Google.

    And while we're at it:
    Welcome to Science, may I take your order? What is the basis for anything in science? Apparently, you should google "science" too.

    While I do think most of what you do is an act, MR, I'm really not certain here. This is a pretty spectacular ignorance act you are putting on if it is actually an act. Any 8th grader who has just had his first day of his first introduction to the concept of "science" should be able to answer these questions. So, well done!
    No, let's call it "Bob Hope". That would be just as meaningful as any other randomly chosen word to name something that doesn't exist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    On the basis that a fifth force has proven unnecessary to account for what we observe about the natural world, at least so far. All basic interactions in physics can be explained using the four known forces, as far as we can tell. It is always possible that new observations or experiments may demand a new force some time in the future.

    That's just a fancier name for "fifth force".
     
  14. river

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    scalar , defined

    a quantity (as mass or time ) that has a magnitude describable by a real number and no direction
     
  15. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    It continually irks me that while many but especially particle physicists continue to refer to 'the four fundamental forces' as per OP post, almost universally, GR physicists are adamant that gravity is *not* a force but simply the consequence of spacetime curvature. Just why these parties never get together and thrash out a unified position is a long-standing mystery.
    Add to this mix the insistence by QM crowd that degeneracy *pressure* owing to PEP (Pauli exclusion principle), which is all that holds up white dwarfs or neutron stars against collapsing under such stars enormous gravitational force - correction - effects of spacetime curvature - is not a force either. Despite that by definition pressure = force/area. Not-forces can sure do a good job masquerading as forces. Evidently one needs to read the fine-print definition - there must be boson exchange to qualify.
    Finally, should point out that quite a few GUT/TOE theorists believe there may be a whole new hierarchy of 'fundamental forces' yet to be discovered at energy scales currently inaccessible. See e.g. last para here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction#Beyond_the_Standard_Model
     
  16. Motor Daddy Valued Senior Member

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    10,000 RPM.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Actually, many physicists refer to them as "fundamental interactions" rather than as "fundamental forces".

    Degeneracy pressure is really just the requirement that no two fermions (e.g. neutrons) can occupy the same state. So, I can see why it isn't described as a force. It does prevent gravitational collapse, though, so...

    Sounds fair enough.

    Yes, there are all kinds of theories out there. A popular one is supersymmetry, where every currently-known particle has a supersymmetry partner particle.
     
  18. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Well....the two are used interchangeably - as per very first sentence in that Wiki link I gave. Just Google 'fundamental forces' and follow the long string of mainstream entries that list 'the four'. There is an undeniable cultural divide wrt a unified standard definition that imo should have been cleaned up ages ago. The current majority expectation of a final QG scheme describing gravity via *maybe* some kind of graviton exchange is no excuse for not having long settled on a non-confusing agreed position.
    Personally I more and more lean to the view of gravity as an effective force/interaction. Which if born-out then gravitation wouldn't even qualify as fundamental anything.
     
  19. Landau Roof Registered Senior Member

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    By quintessence I think he means effervescence. He's saying the fifth force is sparkling "water".

    Tiny bubbles (tiny bubbles)
    In
    the wine (in the wine)
    Make
    me happy (make me happy)
    Make
    me feel fine (make me feel fine)
     
  20. Farsight

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    Quintessence goes back to the days of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. These four "elements" were said to be made of the fifth element, or fifth essence. Quint means five. This is what Wiki says:

    "For theories and defunct or classical concepts named after the synonym "Aether", see Aether (disambiguation).
    In physics, quintessence is a hypothetical form of dark energy postulated as an explanation of the observation of an accelerating rate of expansion of the universe announced in 1998. It has been proposed by some physicists to be a fifth fundamental force."


    IMHO there are some issues with forces and interactions. The picture in the OP shows "four fundamental forces" but the electromagnetic interaction is combined with the weak interaction as electroweak.
     
  21. Landau Roof Registered Senior Member

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    If we all look hard nough maybe we'll see that the fifth force is squintessence.

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  22. tashja Registered Senior Member

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  23. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you, Tashja.
     
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