A challenge to Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by garbonzo, Mar 12, 2011.

  1. garbonzo Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, so I was/am a born and raised christian. I've always had evidence that I was doing the right thing, but I watched a 60 minutes story and the guy is an atheist, has written and read many books and he still says he has found no evidence of God. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something here, so I came on here to see what you guys thought of Bible evidence. What arguments you have against it. I will have an open and unbiased attitude, and I hope you will, too. So now here is the Bible evidence that I've been going by for all my life:

    The Bible was written over a 1,600-year period, yet everything is harmonious, and it all follows 1 central theme from beginning to end. The first book of the Bible tells us how mankind’s problems began, and the last book shows that the whole earth will become a paradise, or garden. All the material in the Bible covers thousands of years of history (which has been proven accurate by reputable people, I'll get to that later) and relates in some way to the unfolding of God’s purpose.

    The Bible is scientifically accurate, as it even contains information that was far ahead of its time. The book of Leviticus contained laws for ancient Israel on quarantine and hygiene when surrounding nations knew nothing about such matters, at a time when there were wrong ideas about the shape of the earth, the Bible referred to it as a circle, or sphere, (Isaiah 40:22) and the Bible accurately said that the earth ‘hangs on nothing.’ (Job 26:7)

    The Bible is also historically accurate and reliable, as its accounts are specific. They include not only the names, but also the ancestry of individuals. Also, in contrast to secular historians, who often do not mention the defeats of their own people, Bible writers were honest, even recording their own failings and those of their nation. In the Bible book of Numbers, for instance, the writer Moses admits his own serious error for which he was severely reproved. (Numbers 20:2-12) Such honesty is rare in other historical accounts, but is found in the Bible because it is a book from God (which is under debate right now).

    The Bible contains numerous prophecies, many of which have already been fulfilled. 1 Example:

    Through the prophet Isaiah, who lived in the eighth century B.C.E., God foretold that the city of Babylon would be destroyed. (Isaiah 13:19; 14:22, 23) Details were given to show just how this would happen. Invading armies would dry up Babylon’s river and march into the city without a battle. That is not all. Isaiah’s prophecy even named the king who would conquer Babylon—Cyrus.—Isaiah 44:27–45:2.

    Some 200 years later—on the night of October 5/6, 539 B.C.E.—an army encamped near Babylon. Who was its commander? Yes, a Persian king named Cyrus. Cyrus cleverly diverted the water of the river that flowed through the city. Soon the water was shallow enough for his men to cross the riverbed and approach the walls of the city. And for some reason, on that night the doors to the city were carelessly left open!

    Regarding Babylon, it was also foretold: “She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let their flocks lie down there.” (Isaiah 13:20) This prophecy showed that Babylon would be desolated permanently. You can see evidence of the fulfillment of these words. The uninhabited site of ancient Babylon—about 50 miles [80 km] south of Baghdad, Iraq—is proof that what Jehovah spoke through Isaiah has been fulfilled: “I will sweep her with the broom of annihilation.”—Isaiah 14:22, 23.

    The destruction of Babylon is just one example of fulfilled Bible prophecy. Other examples include the destruction of Tyre and Nineveh. (Ezekiel 26:1-5; Zephaniah 2:13-15) Also, Daniel’s prophecy foretold a succession of world empires that would come into power after Babylon. These included Medo-Persia and Greece. (Daniel 8:5-7, 20-22) And more. (I can list more if you guys would like.)

    I hope you guys don't think I'm preaching, here, as I have a open attitude, here, and I know some of you guys asked the question, "What evidence do you have?"


    That's all for now. Even if you guys somehow come up with REAL credible arguments, I will not believe that we evolved from nothing. I saw a documentary which kinda made sense, where some believe that the universe keeps replicating itself infinite amount of times. If this was somehow true, which is kinda out there in itself, even if it was true, I just don't see how the world, as perfect as it is, could have made its self. Even infinite amount of times! I mean, to get this combination??? It's crazy. There has to be something that created this.

    My idea is that we are in a virtual reality maybe by our future selves (to relive their past), where they came from is already common knowledge there, we just don't have the knowledge in here. Something like that. Because I saw yet another documentary (i had this notion before i saw this documentary, though), that if we look down far enough, the world is pixelated, and the world is only there when we look at it, just like in games.

    There is no way of knowing, is there?

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    Even if you look over you shoulder with something, the computer would know your doing that and display what's behind you

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    Either that or some other creator, but WE DID NOT COME FROM NOTHING THIS PERFECT, I don't see how anything can prove otherwise.

    After all, the evidence is around you.

    Regards,

    Mike
     
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  3. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    There is no proof that the Bible is true other than the fact that it says it is..I could say I have an elephant in my pocket and that it's true, but that doesn't make it so.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I could write a book filled with modern historical details mixed with supernatural elements, but you would not expect it all to be true. I could also write prophecies after the fact and claim that I predicted them accurately, which is what some authors of the Bible did. The Bible is actually full of contradictions, in spite of what it's apologists say. People may be aware of problems, such as disease, without knowing what causes them. One can see the effects of good hygiene without knowing why it's beneficial.

    There are perfectly plausible scientific models of the universe. They do not have to have all the answers in order to reject superstition. There is no reliable evidence for a God. Ancient words in a book are just that, words in a book.
     
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  7. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm.
     
  8. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    *yawn* wake me when something new comes up.
     
  9. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    None of which actually proves anything. Any good fiction novel will have an overall theme. Besides, the Bible is not all that harmonious, Genesis itself contains more than one version of the creation story.
    The bible also classifies bats as birds and at one point give the ratio of a circle's diameter to circumference as being 3. As for the world, a circle is not a sphere, a circle is a flat two dimensional object. If you actually put together the various descriptions in the Bible, you come up with a flat circular plate-like world covered with a domed sky to which the stars are affixed. In fact the word "firmament" used today to describe the sky in the bible is was translated from the original in Hebrew which meant "thin metal". Thus in the original language in which the Bible was written, the sky is made of a thin metal dome, not exactly scientifically acurate.
    Except for when the Bible is not. For example, historical dating shows that at the Time (according to the Bible) that the Wall of Jericho fell, Jericho had been abandoned for centuries. Besides just because is contains some historical accuracies, doesn't make everything in it true. The movie "Titanic" contained many historical facts, but it doesn't mean that Jack and Rose really existed. Troy actually existed, but that doesn't mean that the Odyssey and Iliad are historical documents.
    And how do you know that those "Prophecies" were actually written before the said events. It is always easy to go back and insert or rewrite prophecies "after the fact".
    Your inability to believe in something is just that: your inability. There are still people around who refuse to believe that the world is not flat. Does this make them right?
    You seem to be referring to a particular interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, (and not one that is universally accepted). Unfortunatly, a documentary like the one you saw are generally dumbed down for the average viewer to the point that they actually promote quite a few misconceptions.
    Like you, I was raised Christian. I was baptized, went to Sunday school and bible study, confirmed, was an alter boy, and later an usher. I even read the Lessons during the service at times.
    But I have an inquiring mind, and began to question the things I was raised to believe. After a time, I came to the conclusion that was nothing but another mythology.

    What I have a hard time accepting is that an "all loving God", would instill in me the very inquiring mind that would lead me away from the Church, and then punish me for following the natural tendencies that he gave me.
     
  10. garbonzo Registered Senior Member

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    790
    You guys just seem to LOVE taking things out of context, don't you?

    I then afterword said that I would rather believe that there is some unexplained creator. Meaning just this:

    If you guys provide credible evidence that the Bible is NOT true, then all it means is that it's not inspired by the creator. Something created this, let it be some alien creatures or a superhuman being.

    And I can almost guarantee you that "any good fiction novel" won't have over 40 authors, though! You completely missed the point

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    The point wasn't that it had a theme, the point was that it was by 40 author spanning many many years AND it has a theme. Tell me where Genesis has more than 1 version of the creation story. Again, in order for me to debate with you, you need to provide some evidence

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    Thanks.

    Again, please may I have the scriptures for this? Also, what about the fact that the earth hangs upon nothing?
    Yet again, please have a scripture for me about Jericho, although I don't entirely understand it, are you saying The Wall of Jericho DIDN'T fall? I do agree with you that historical facts doesn't prove all that much, but it does prove it has some credibility, just like how they said Troy didn't exist, but they found out it did.
    That you would be punished all rests on what you would supposedly believe. In my religion, an all loving god means just that, he can read hearts and if he sees that you really wanted to know the truth, but died before ever having found out, you WOULD be resurrected. It all depends on your heart.

    My inability is because I see no valid evidence. Seriously, just look all around you, how the hell is that by chance? Even if made infinite amount of times. I mean infinite is a high number, lol, but it's incomprehensible, one in [astronomical number]. I mean for everything that's perfect: your body: its one in [astronomical number], the earth: one in [astronomical number], the universe: one in [astronomical number], the atmosphere: one in [astronomical number], every single thing... add all those numbers up and you'd come up with a number that would fill this whole website! Not to mention all of the duplicates it would have. Even then, yes it is possible with infinite amount of times, BUT now, ALL of it has to come together, EVERYTHING we have now has to come together to make 1 thing: the world as we know it. Add those numbers up >.> That's my inability to comprehend such a high number coming true.

    Anyway:

    You make some good points for me to take to the organization in a letter. I just need some more evidence as groundwork as stated above.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2011
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    The Bible looks as it should if it were created by the typical inhabitants of the region, full of vaguely historical legends that had been written and re-written many times (it was the only way to copy things), each time being embellished and modified to sound good to the author. The Bible is a collection of gospels that was edited and compiled by the Romans, who by omission or inclusion crafted their own chosen message.
     
  12. Emil Valued Senior Member

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    2,801
    @garbonzo,

    If it is allowed and agnostics then I'd ask first.
    The topic of discussion is about god, a particular God or about religions or a particular religion?
     
  13. garbonzo Registered Senior Member

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    790
    Evidence? Thanks.

    It's about whether the Bible is inspired by the creator, or just a bunch of stories which somehow have a central theme over thousands of years and writers.
     
  14. Emil Valued Senior Member

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    2,801
    Take a look here and tell me, in your opinion why is there such a distribution?

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  15. garbonzo Registered Senior Member

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    The graph and map shows that Satan has mislead the entire earth. (Revelation 12:9)

    Hehe, I think mine is a unique answer.
     
  16. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    man the OP makes me feel nostalgic..

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  17. Emil Valued Senior Member

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    But if God, when He banished the man from heaven, He took seriously what He said.
    He gave a glimpse of him, ie to distinguish right from wrong and the choice.
    Since then He has never interfered with life on Earth.
    He will demand an account on Judgement Day.
    Everything else is the work of Satan.
     
  18. garbonzo Registered Senior Member

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    790
    Man was never in Heaven. Show me in the Bible where it says Man was in Heaven.
     
  19. Emil Valued Senior Member

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    2,801
    My mistake, I meant Paradise.
    But that isn't the idea of what I meant.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Ask any Biblical scholar, the academic kind, not the divinity school kind.
     
  21. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    The Bible is as consistent as you would expect when you take a vast number of stories, "gospels" and other writings that were written over a vast period of time... and filter out all those that don't have the same central themes.
    It is reasonably consistent precisely because the non-consistent stories were not included.

    The earth hangs??
    Last I heard we were in freefall around the sun?
    But maybe my physics is off.


    To get an idea... shuffle and deal a deck of cards one by one... all 52 of them.
    Now, look at the order of cards.
    What were the odds you dealt them in that order?
    By your logic and understanding of probability you would think it is almost 1 in 10^68.
    And yet that was precisely the order you dealt them.
    Go figure!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  22. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    You misunderstand statistics. What if there were no right answer? What if the universe rolled the dice, and there was no guarantee of this particular outcome? That means that all alternatives were equally likely, and our universe is no less likely than any other.
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    We are significantly imperfect. We are mortal and very fragile, we die very easily from countless causes.

    If we had been created perfect we would have known not to eat from the apple that caused our downfall. If we were designed then we were deliberately designed to be faulty.

    As a creator/designer, God must have been either incompetent or deliberately malicious.
     

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