60th Anniversary: Bombing of Dresden

Discussion in 'History' started by cingolani_c, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. cingolani_c Charles Banned

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    Imagine Our Town Being Bombed

    [Remembering Dresden: February 13, 1945]

    The planes would come in
    from the west
    at an angle, so as to run
    up along the valley
    to destroy our mills,
    laying a carpet of bombs
    half a mile wide
    straight up across our town,
    guiding on the Court House
    then out beyond
    to the hill
    where the hospital stands
    then further still
    to our railroad yards
    and the bridge across,
    with twenty merciless runs,
    and what still stood
    would be ground
    in drafts of fire—
    Dresden
    burnt into memory
    murmuring:
    Try to imagine.


    And those who survived
    would gather along the creek
    where water soothed
    or in our woods
    under angels' wings
    while one long dirge
    of soft wailing
    would be heard
    for what had been.

    Then one among them
    would rise,
    aged now and enlightened,
    with that one word empowered:
    Build.
    And it would happen.


    from: The Butler Pennsylvania Poems

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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2005
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  3. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    During three waves of attacks, over 1,300 bombers bombed Dresden .The terror bombing of the non-military cultural center of Dresden killed 135,000 . A totally unnecessary act as the Russian army was only 1 week away from liberating Dresden ! WHY ? Simple the object of the allies was to let the Communist government of Russia get a first hand view of western airpower and its destructive capability when they arrived in Dresden , likewise the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was to demonstrate to Communist Russia the willingness of America to use this weapon and by using 2 to show that there was more of those from where they came from . In short it was a clear and dire warning to Soviet Russia not to interfere with the new post WWII world order being created by America the new leader of the Western Plutocracies .
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    That's a pretty provocative opinion. Do you have source material for that or is it your own thinking? I've never seen an adequate explanation for Dresden, yours is not unreasonable but that doesn't make it true. But I've seen a couple of other explanations for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as apologists' writings.

    For one thing the A-bomb damage must be taken in perspective compared to the damage done by cumulative bombing runs over Tokyo. There was more loss of civilian life and more destruction of civilian infrastructure in Tokyo from conventional bombing than in the two nuclear attacks.

    For another it's said to have convinced the supporters of the intransigent Japanese military leaders, rather than the USSR, that America would stop at nothing short of annihilation of the Japanese people, and that without this show of dishonorable force that put even the Japanese atrocities to shame, the nation would literally have fought until the last Japanese baby was dead. It also grew cojones on the emperor, a peaceful Buddhist who was letting himself be carried along by historical events, so that he stood up to his own generals at last.
     
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  7. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    Its my own thinking , based on a good historical thinking over the incidents though . Japan was sending out peace feelers through the Vatican embassy and other neutrals directly before 1945 , Japan knew very well she was beaten . Much has been made of this fanatic Japanese resistance but lets face it as the American steamroller approached Japan resistance was crumbling after Okinawa Japan expended her power their . If the US had of launched a land invasion Japan would of crumbled in a matter of months . Just remember by 1944 the allies were looking for after WWII and they knew that when the current conflict inevitably ended you were going to have a Soviet Union fully geared for war . The ideological rivals of the Capitalist West diametrically opposed to the Communist East and in 1948 Russia was announced as the global threat to civilization . Cold blooded it may sound but these 'warnings' from powerful nations have been with us since the days of Empire .
     
  8. River Ape Valued Senior Member

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    I had understood that the pressure to bomb Dresden had come from the Russians. "Bomber" Harris was against it on military grounds, but Churchill had overruled him on political grounds.

    When I use the words "I had understood" I mean that it is not an aspect of WWII on which I consider myself an expert, and I am willing to be better informed. But I want some convincing evidence before I put aside what I have believed until now to have been the situation.
     
  9. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    535
    See Frederick Taylor's Dresden.
    Dresden was a road and rail communications centre and its industries had been converted to military use. One thing that Taylor doesn't mention, but which i think is possible, is that the destruction of German cities towards the end of the war may have been meant to make it plain that attempts to use them as fortresses like Stalingrad wouldn't work.
    Japan's peace proposals were based on the retention of conquered territory. Certainly people who would have been involved were convinced that an invasion of the Japanese mainland and enormous casualties was necessary. Japan might have crumbled in a matter of months but a lot of people would have died in those months, not just in Japan but in other Japanese occupied territories. Japanese defence preparations rested on the assumption that all Japanese- including women and children- would fight and that Japan could accept much higher casualty rates than the US if it invaded.
     
  10. jennyRater Luck B me 2nite Registered Senior Member

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    yes , isnt that why the Americans didnt invade because they needed to save the lives of their soldeirs. If they had beaten Japan the hard way theyd have come outof the war lots weeker and the rest of the 20th C could have turned out diferent too.

    As for dresden, its strange that we dont get much war guilt here in the USA or in Britian for all the civvies who died there.. and all the other german citys. our bombers must killed a million or more inc. women + children - isnt that a holocaustt, just like the deathcamps?
     
  11. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    The winners don't mourn about dead enemy, whether fictional or real.
     
  12. certified psycho Beware of the Shockie Monkey Registered Senior Member

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    That is so sad. That is not a way to show military power to the world.
     
  13. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    The actual civilian casualties were probably about 35000- bad enough, but not what was claimed. In total war- where everyone, civilian or not, is working to ensure that the armed forces are as well armed as possible, everyone is a legitimate target. Ironically, Germany wasn't engaged in such warfare, for all the propaganda they churned out, so the city-bombings had much less effect on german ability to fight than the allies supposed.
     
  14. jennyRater Luck B me 2nite Registered Senior Member

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    I read somewhere that german war industrys had moved out of the cities by 1945, so they were building more tanks or planes than ever before - even with all the bombing. their real problem was they couldnt keep their machines fueld up or their forces at the front fed properly, not with supply colums under atack on the roads.
     
  15. suzukisfrog Registered Senior Member

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    turn nazi or commie and it'll get blasted again.
     
  16. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Not really. Look at NK

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  17. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

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    East and West , Capitalism vs Nazism vs Communism each as stupid as the other the only winners in this war and everyothers are the financiers .
     
  18. jennyRater Luck B me 2nite Registered Senior Member

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    We are all much happyer + freer under capitalism than the Nazi or Commie civilains were!! from what you said, it wouldnt have been any beter if the Axis had won WWII.. not many would agree realy!

    there might be something better thats POSSIBLE, but its never been tested ina great power.
     
  19. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    How do you know?

    I watched a few nazi propoganda films and all seemed very happy!
    I have seen a lot of communist propoganda and all seem very happy in it!
    I see capitalist propoganda every day and all seem to be very very happy.

    I've seen a lot of communist propoganda about the USA in the cold war days and it was a terrible shithole as depicted in it.

    In reality -> it depends whether you serve and like the regime or oppose the regime.
    If you serve, you are well off,
    if not, your life sucks.

    I imagine that all the nazi people would love a nazi regime.
    By we all you mean "we all capitalists" then? I think so.
    I imagine some hardcore communist isn't as happy as you are.

    p.s. I favour neither, but I hate communism.
     
  20. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    Hardly. Financiers do a lot better out of peace. In wars everyone defaults on their debts.
     
  21. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Tell that to weapon's manufacturers.
     
  22. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    ...who aren't financiers.
     
  23. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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