3 publicly hanged in Iran.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by otheadp, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    For example, when the USA influenced the elections of Nicarauga(forgive spelling), and when it propped up the dictatorships in El Salvador. As well as funding terrorist organisations in South America. Source: Noam Chomsky: Manufacturing Consent
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So what is the rate of execution in Iran? How many people get executed in a year?

    e.g.
    But in hard numbers,
    Whats the equivalent statistics for executions in other countries?
     
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  5. otheadp Banned Banned

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    in Saud, 2005 was the year of the sword, where there was a record breaking number of head chopping executions (191)
    2007 is forecasted to beat that number.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289317,00.html

    that's quite a lot for a population of 27 million

    though IMHO, as barbaric headchopping is, it's not that bad the way the Saudi gov't is doing it since it's instant. and when they chop your hand off, they freeze it first so you don't feel pain during.

    Iran's version of "justice" is different. its goal is to inflict maximum maximum pain.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ok I found it.

    Apparently the figures are high in Saudi Arabia and Iran. There is a lot of data on amnesty.
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/055.html
     
  8. otheadp Banned Banned

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    See, this isn't a discussion about the death penalty. I'm all for it. It's about the WHY and the HOW.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    It would seem the prevailing justice system is the one from the post revolution period. I wonder how many members of Savak are employed as executioners. A taste for torture that dies hard? :shrug:
    http://www.countercurrents.org/us-lucas260704.htm

    http://www.angelfire.com/home/iran/expect.html

    edit: yup, the king is dead long live the king

    http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/savak.htm
     
  10. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Assuming all that's been said about the SAVAK is true, it hasn't been around for almost 30 years! Are you blaming today's Iranian backwardness on SAVAK?

    While it is guilty of political crimes, I think SAVAK was on the side that fought backwardness.

    I'm making a distinction between political violence (which in SAVAK's case everyone knew was wrong, and found no support among the population), and violence stemming from backwardness (where there is popular support, supported by "tradition" as opposed to "military or national necessity")

    In Castro's Cuba there were revolutionary courts and probably torture chambers too. But that can be half-forgiven, because whatever was (and still is) done today is because of an unpopular regime that is trying to survive. Kind of like the Shah, no? No, it can't be forgiven, but it's not half as bad as the other kind of torture... the kind that doesn't exist in Cuba but does in Iran.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Frankly, I am not for the death penalty. The whys and hows are irrelevant to me. Like a technician in my lab said, "you're gonna KILL those rats, get it? KILL them, like permanent death. So wtf do you care if they are in pain when you do it?"
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Savama is Savak; it never went away. See edit.
     
  13. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Um... no.
    What the writer of that opinion piece had meant was that the situation in today's Iran is just as bad as under the Shah, because there is still secret police there.

    But it is not the same aparatus, manned by the same people.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Opinions aside the fact that Gen. Hossein Fardoust was running both Savak and then Savama is a very concrete indicator, na?

    After all, that is no state secret.
     
  15. otheadp Banned Banned

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    I didn't know that.

    So what is your point? That secular Shah was executing gays and adulterous or retarded teens too?
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The secular Shah was too busy killing the liberal dissidents who were mad at him for being the US stooge. Which is why it left only the extreme right fundamentalists standing in power in Iran; whatever happened to the politicians who were there with Mossadegh, or didn't anybody wonder how the liberals just disappeared from the political scene in Iran?

    Or why the fundies needed a Savama to stay in power?

    Anyway, I agree with you that political reform is needed in Iran, thats what most people there want, anyway.

    But much of what passes for justice in Iran is actually a way of sustaining power for the fundies (although it does not necessarily mean that all are cast from the same mould). Which is probably a good reason for the public torture and executions as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2007
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I want you to think about who is targeted by corrupt governments such as the shah's.

    The obvious answer is "political enemies". But among that broad umbrella are journalists, academics, and liberal clergy.

    What happens is that the people lose their informational and educational infrastructure. Who steps in and fills the gap?

    Journalism is replaced by propaganda and superstitious gossip. The liberal clergy, which has a calming and restraining effect on people, is replaced by ... can you guess?

    And what else does the rising ultraconservative clergy do? They run schools.

    The reign of the shah so devastated the people of Iran that they turned to the first person that looked like he had a chance of winning. And we remember who that was, right?

    Khomeni died in 1989, but took down many academics among his victims. The people have been recovering since then, and for some reason many in the West expect that recovery to be quick. It takes a couple generations to complete the cycle, and diverse events can help or hurt progress. Ali Khameni seems too interested in putting on various performances for the benefit of the world audience to fully destroy his people the way either Khomeni or Palavi did. Nonetheless, he has the power, still, to set the people back decades.

    Take a look through history, though: if you destroy the academics and the liberal clergy, there is little to prevent superstition and propaganda from twisting the minds of the people. Many in the West criticize Muslims as if they are stupid or primitive, but if we look back to the American-sponsored overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953, how many generations of Iranian never really stood a chance of achieving what we in the West consider enlightenment?
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    It's not that trust must be earned, but that it's easily forfeit

    Otheadp, the following pertains to this quote, and also our general running dispute over the years: That this is your response is indicative of why I don't trust your perspective. Simply put, if you can't understand what I wrote, how can you possibly expect that people trust the conclusions and assertions you put forth? When you demonstrate such a clear lack of understanding, why should we believe you understand?

    I think the post you responded to was fairly clear.

    This is one of the problems with tampering with communities. If you do something to hold them back, they won't develop socially with the rest of the world.

    Hangings and stonings in places like Iran may seem as savage as the Inquisitions or the French Terror, but this sort of thing is hardly unexpected when major world powers (the U.S., for example) spend so much effort on preventing social development in other countries.

    What about that do you not understand? Its failure to condemn Muslims according to your need?
     
  19. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Why are you making it personal?

    I exmplained how nobody was holding them back socially. In fact there were only attempts to fast-track them out of their backwardness. I gave examples too. What do you not understand?
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You think that post made it personal?

    I don't understand how you think tampering with foreign governments, giving aid and comfort to tyrants, and empowering ignorant, violent, ultraconservative elements in a society equal an attempt to "fast-track them out of their backwardness".

    Or, more simply: I don't understand how promoting the backwards elements within a society is an attempt to "fast-track them out of their backwardness".

    As to you, given that a people are behaving in a manner corresponding to historical examples, how do you not understand that we can find relevant lessons in history?
     

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