2nd Crimean War?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by exchemist, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    Julia Ioffe made some observations of Putin's press conference yesterday:


    In Sunday's New York Times, Peter Baker reported that German Chancellor Angela Merkel had tried talking some sense into Vladimir Putin. The Russian leader has an affinity for the Germans and Merkel especially: He served in the KGB in East Germany, where Merkel grew up. And yet, nothing:

    Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said. “In another world,” she said.

    If you weren't sure of the veracity of that little reportorial nugget, all doubt should've vanished after Putin's press conference today.

    Slouching in a fancy chair in front of a dozen reporters, Putin squirmed and rambled. And rambled and rambled. He was a rainbow of emotion: Serious! angry! bemused! flustered! confused! So confused. Victor Yanukovich is still the acting president of Ukraine, but he can't talk to Ukraine because Ukraine has no president. Ukraine needs elections, but you can't have elections because there is already a president. And no elections will be valid given that there is terrorism in the streets of Ukraine. And how are you going to let just anyone run for president? What if some nationalist punk just pops out like a jack-in-the-box? An anti-Semite? Look at how peaceful the Crimea is, probably thanks to those guys with guns holding it down. Who are they, by the way? Speaking of instability, did you know that the mayor of Dniepropetrovsk is a thief? He cheated "our oligarch, [Chelsea owner Roman] Abramovich" of millions. Just pocketed them! Yanukovich has no political future, I've told him that. He didn't fulfill his obligations as leader of the country. I've told him that. Mr. Putin, what mistakes did Yanukovich make as president? You know, I can't answer that. Not because I don't know the answer, but because it just wouldn't be right of me to say. Did you know they burned someone alive in Kiev? Just like that? Is that what you call a manifestation of democracy? Mr. Putin, what about the snipers in Kiev who were firing on civilians? Who gave them orders to shoot? Those were provocateurs. Didn't you read the reports? They were open source reports. So I don't know what happened there. It's unclear. But did you see the bullets piercing the shields of the Berkut [special police]. That was obvious. As for who gave the order to shoot, I don't know. Yanukovich didn't give that order. He told me. I only know what Yanukovich told me. And I told him, don't do it. You'll bring chaos to your city. And he did it, and they toppled him. Look at that bacchanalia. The American political technologists they did their work well. And this isn't the first time they've done this in Ukraine, no. Sometimes, I get the feeling that these people...these people in America. They are sitting there, in their laboratory, and doing experiments, like on rats. You're not listening to me. I've already said, that yesterday, I met with three colleagues. Colleagues, you're not listening. It's not that Yanukovich said he's not going to sign the agreement with Europe. What he said was that, based on the content of the agreement, having examined it, he did not like it. We have problems. We have a lot of problems in Russia. But they're not as bad as in Ukraine. The Secretary of State. Well. The Secretary of State is not the ultimate authority, is he?

    And so on, for about an hour. And much of that, by the way, is direct quotes.


    Crazy man at the helm.. No wonder it's descending into madness.
     
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  3. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Well seeing as Putin is unfortunately backing away from sending peacekeeping military troops due to not enough UN support as US does...is sad to see...but hopefully in future we will have more control of voice in UN to sanction protection of Russians from forced take over in government as was in Ukraine. And Merkel supports the West in this issue, sadly. No wonder.

    Is sad. I hope the Russians inside Ukraine, before they start suffering under this "democratic" Western 1 billion dollar fake government, I hope they rebel from all my heart. And take over the government just as these current pawns of West did. And Crimea will not fall into these lies. Simferopol and other Crimean towns have support of Russia. No more bullying from West. Time to defend our lands. Time to bring back the nukes in Cuba and show the US what it feels like to loose control right in your own backyard

    This is all shit....US invades countries non-stop under any claim it chooses, has support in UN. And here our own citizens are dying and we can't help them. Please, send the troops and destroy this disease that overtook Ukraine.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Name one Russian citizen who been harmed in Ukraine? And Russia has just as much statutory power in the UN as the US. You want to be treated like a big boy,act like one. The only one lying here is Putin. Either that or Putin has lost his mind.

    Freedom, openness, and honesty are powerful attributes. Those attributes are at the heart of Western power. And they are free. Russia can become a great power, but it will need to change. The old ways failed you. It's time for change.
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Where is Georgie Bush II when you need him to stare into Putin's soul?

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  8. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    Here he is!

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  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, ah so sweet.

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  10. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    You can't spell 'sweet' without dubya!
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, you got it.

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  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The Russian Navy blocks Ukrainian access to the Black Sea. And more and more of those Russian mystery troops that aren't Russian are showing up wearing Russian insignias. Some of them are even identifying themselves as Russians to Ukrainian troops.

    "Earlier in the week, the commander of the Russian Black Sea fleet, Admiral Alexander Vitko, visited Ukraine’s South Base, according to the deputy base commander, Captain Viktor Shmiganovsky.

    ''He asked me to invite all the officers and suggested that we collectively take up the Russian military allegiance oath and become part of the Black Sea fleet ... promising good pay and a bright future,'' Captain Shmiganovsky said. ''He insisted we do that to help protect Ukraine from extremist gangs.''

    The officer said his boss, the base commander, retorted: ''Comrade admiral, we didn't see any extremist gangs here until you came with your men.'' He said the admiral left ''in a rage''. Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/russia-...o-black-sea-20140307-hvghs.html#ixzz2vETBs8p4
     
  13. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    One retard of a base commander siding with Americans. How sweet.
     
  14. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Surely you mean "being loyal to his country"?

    I had a vague idea this is what military men are supposed to do.
     
  15. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    I'd just like to point out here that you can't spell ''one retard of a base commander siding with Americans' without a dubya either. So what are we really all arguing about here?

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  16. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    You're telling us the smart thing would be for Ukrainian officers to sign up with the Russian navy and wait for their promised paycheques? What exactly in your view is the point to there being a Ukraine in the first place?

    Believe it or not we Westerners hold the levers here, so I argue we go with the higher gas prices in Europe and let Russia's economy implode. Enough with the crap, the double speak and all the proxy wars; most of the conflicts we've been fighting or preparing to fight are against Russian-sponsored opponents who buy their weapons with cash they got by trading with us in the first place.
     
  17. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't it interesting, that when the USA isn't involved, an actual discussion of the situation occurs.
     
  18. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    What's your example of US involvement leading to a stifled discussion? I'm not sure if you're angling to complain about double standards where the world wants the US involved in Ukraine but not in Iraq, but America's unilateral invasion of Iraq is exactly one of the precedents Russia is using as an excuse here, another reason it was a bad idea in the first place.

    Speaking of discussion, I'll throw Russia a bone here... International law recognizes the principle of self-determination, which unless I'm mistaken, would mean the citizens of Crimea have the right to split off from Ukraine with at least a portion of the territory. It would be the same situation as what Canada has faced in the past with Quebec referendums on separation, democracy requires that they get to have their own say. How come western nations haven't openly acknowledged this right at least in principle? And to put the spotlight back on Putin, why is Russia in such a hurry to have a phony referendum when most of the Crimea's citizens would probably choose to stick with Russia in a real vote anyhow?
     
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, the base commander sided with his country and his government. And his country is not the USA.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    What planet are you on?
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Russian troops in Crimera refuse to give access to UN observers and are beating up those protesting Russian occupation.
     
  22. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Same one you are. Last I checked, we only have the one.
    And, given your history, who the hell are you trying to fool?
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    If that is the case, how about getting your facts straight? How about making some kind of sense? How about leaving your paranoia and insecurities at the doorstep?

    The question is who the hell is Putin trying to fool? Apparently the answer is people like you. American involvement in the Ukraine since the Russian invasion has escalated. Perhaps you didn't notice all of the statements out of Washington since the Russian invasion. Perhaps you didn't notice the billion dollar American aid package that was given to the Ukraine just a few days ago. Perhaps you didn't notice the 12 billion dollar aid package Europeans gave the Ukraine just a few days ago, after the Russian invasion. Perhaps you didn't notice all of the meetings of foreign ministers discussing the Russian invasion and occupation of Crimea? Perhaps you didn't notice the travel restrictions placed on Russians who have involved in this invasion and occupation? Perhaps you didn't notice the Russian thugs beating up dissidents and reporters in Crimea? Perhaps you didn't notice the Russian thugs in Crimea harassing and keeping out neutral UN observers. Perhaps you didn't notice that a lot of the Russian supporters in Crimea are recent immigrates from Russia. Perhaps you didn't notice a lot of things? So if you are on the same planet, you must be holed up somewhere in Siberia and not paying attention to the world around you. You may not notice, but things are not going to go well for Russia if Putin persists.

    US sanctions will persist and they will become more and more painful for Russia as times passes. The US alone can lock Russia out of the international banking system and that would be devastating for Russia. I don't expect Putin will blink. But I do expect the oligarchs around Putin will eventually blink. Already Putin has shot Russia in the foot. Foreign businesses which have developed Russia and been largely responsible for Russia's economy won't invest in Russia, and understandably so, with the Putin's threat of seizure and the risk of import bans. We have already seen major businesses like Exxon adjust their earnings guidance and stop further development and investment in Russia as a result of the Russian invasion and Putin's threats.

    Strategically, in the overall scope of things, the Crimea is unimportant. Russia however views it as strategic for its warm water port for a Navy it cannot afford and does not need. In the event of war, the Russian fleet would exists only for a few minutes before becoming only a memory. The Ukraine could drop off the world tomorrow and the US would barely notice as the Ukraine has no vital resources that cannot be obtained elsewhere and has little military or economic value. From the American point of view it just isn't that important.

    It becomes important however when its neighbor (i.e.Russia) invades the country, occupies it and annexes it and it becomes even more important when this is reflective of a continuing pattern as is the case with the Ukraine. That is a behavior that cannot be tolerated. It's the kind of thing that caused WWII. So it's important to draw a line in the sand early and attempt to resolve this peacefully and as early as possible. Putin has to know, he cannot invade, occupy and annex is neighbors for whatever reason. The world cannot send the message to Russia or to China that this kind of behavior will be tolerated because it will eventually lead to war. And it war, no one wins. Everyone looses. Putin also has to know he is greatly out matched if he wants to go mano-a-mano with the US or its allies. Putin shouldn't interpret the West's preference for peace as weakness. He is out matched politically and militarily. If Putin persists, things are going to get really difficult for Russia. I mean the Russian Ruble is already in free fall. Unfortunately for Putin, his lies won't put food in the bodies of his citizens and it won't keep them warm at night. The bravado might make some people feel good. But that good feeling won't survive the first pangs of hunger and it won't keep them clothed and warm.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...illion-foreign-flight-from-bonds-in-jan-.html

    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary...ts-won-t-help-Russia.-It-needs-the-investment

    The free world cannot afford to create an untrustworthy monster which will abuse its power as Putin has done first in Georgia and now in the Ukraine. That is the bottom line. Great power and great wealth also come with great responsibilities.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014

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