2nd Crimean War?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by exchemist, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Isn´t it a terrifying prospect that we can not consider the possibility of WWIII at the moment of US Iraq Invasion, at the time of financing and coordinating operations to overthrow governments in Libya, Syria, and Egypt.

    You trust your country, USA, bells. keep trusting, while it drops bombs and kills million around the globe under false pretenses of liberties and weapons of mass destruction. That is the real WWIII. Keep watching CNN. Puppet.
     
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  3. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    the only anti-Russian government in Crimea is 12% Tatar population, good luck with that. They have 30% chance of getting anything done in East Ukraine, but I am sure they can and have succeeded in the West of Ukraine, right next to Poland.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Yelephone
    Be careful that conspiracy under your bed is going to get you.
     
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  7. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Proving that this so called revolution was financed from elsewhere is the key to winning this war. We need to find proof for U.N. to sanction the Russian peacekeeping troops to enter mainland Ukraine. Americans are quite adept at hiding their ways of financing operations like this. But history speaks for itself, Pinochet can attest to that.

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    The same will be uncovered in 20 years about the Ukraine´s current ¨revolution¨. But we do not have 20 years, we need to uncover their actions now.
     
  8. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Threats are hindrance to mutual cooperation between our already not so warm relationship.
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Threat, what threat? You are seeing imaginary conspiracies. Do you have any credible proofs? Of course you don't. You don't need them or want them. Ideologues and nationalists never do.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Haven't you heard, the Cold War ended decades ago - conspiracies, conspiracies everywhere but no proofs. Maybe, just maybe, what you think of as conspiracies are the renderings of nationalistic zeal in search of justification. You don't need probable cause, you don't need evidence. In many ways you are like the American right wing, when all else fails just make something up because you know you are right.

    The US has requested and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) is sending a delegation to the Ukraine to act as independent observers and verify the veracity of Russia’s claims. The US ambassador requested Russia to cooperate fully and give the unfettered access. We will see what happens tomorrow when they show up in the Ukraine. My bet is Russia doesn’t cooperate with the OSCE.

    Unfortunately, for you history does speak for itself. For decades after WWII the US and the Soviet Union played a global chess game. Each side, the US and the Soviets used third world countries as pawns in various proxy wars. But those days are gone. The Soviet Empire is gone. And folks like Putin are trying to reconstruct it. But those who suffered and labored under the Soviet regime are not having it. And that is a problem for Putin.

    America is a pretty free place, especially compared to Russia. Unlike Russia, our press is free, free to criticize our leaders. And unlike Russia, they do it often. And though we have our problems with corruption they are nothing when compared to those of Russia. America has many problems, but at least we are a fairly open society. We air our dirty laundry publicly and are proud of it, even when it embarrasses us.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    As previously explained to you Iraq was invaded under a UN approved sanction. It was sanctioned by mother Russia. So why should folks worry about world war when the UN security council signed off on it?

    Two, do you have any evidence the insurgencies which led to the collapse of Libya, Syria or Egypt were financed by the US government? Those governments with the exception of Syria were friendly to the US. So why would the US want to finance an insurgency? Not only do you not have any evidence to support your machinations. They don’t even make sense.

    If memory serves, Bells is an Australian and not an American. And that doesn’t change the fact that Iraq was a UN sanctioned action. The US in conjunction with a number of other countries invaded Iraq under UN sanction. Mother Russia even voted for the US authorization. They didn’t do it like thieves in the night. They didn’t remove their national insignias from their uniforms and equipment so that they couldn’t be identified. And they gave the Iraqi government warning and ample opportunity to comply with UN resolutions before the invasion took place. It’s silly to even suggest world war would occur when all the nuclear powers and virtually all nations concurred with the Iraq invasion.
     
  12. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    6,465
    Well until you have your proof for the UN, and not just some dumb rumours from toothless senile babushka ladies and crazy old clergymen swinging smoke pendulums, perhaps your troops should stick to what they're actually trained for, like raping civilians on your own side of the border.

    Thanks again though for the half-completed $51 billion podium your mafia built for the Canadian men's and women's hockey teams, I'm just grateful it didn't collapse in the middle of the show like everything else that sucked.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    Sanctioned by the UN.

    Putin has decided to simply invade another country, declaring his intent to annex a portion of another country and appears to believe that Ukrainians are Russian and that is saving those Russians.. From what?

    Meanwhile, like all the despots that Putin supports, Yanukovych gorged himself on the foreign financial aid that was meant to benefit the people, by taking the money for himself and the proof can be found in the palatial grounds and even galleon he had built - for his personal use. There is a distinct pattern of behaviour here.

    The issue in the Ukraine was a political matter. A despot who was clearly called out on his illegal activities and a Parliament that voted to eject him from his position of power. Putin's involvement came at the request of the despot, to save the Russians there apparently. Has he forgotten that the Ukraine is no longer a part of Russia?

    I am not American..

    You don't see me supporting those either.


    And keep praising Mother Russia, with its despot of a leader that has invaded another country and demanded they surrender because the puppet, whose hand he has placed firmly up the derriere of said puppet, was voted out of his position of power by the Ukrainian Parliament for amongst other things, theft of public money and corruption and imprisoning his political opponents.
     
  14. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    The following is from BBC News. It may help you to understand the Russian point of view.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26415508
    What is Russia's claim to Crimea?
    Its historical links with the peninsula go back to Catherine the Great in the 18th Century, when Russia conquered southern Ukraine and Crimea, taking them from the Ottoman Empire. In 1954, Crimea was handed to Ukraine as a gift by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, who was himself half-Ukrainian. Only 10 years earlier, Joseph Stalin had deported Crimea's entire Tatar population, some 300,000 people, allegedly for co-operating with Hitler's Germany.

    Nikita Khrushchev
    Nikita Khrushchev (R) transferred Crimea to the jurisdiction of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954
    When Ukraine became independent in 1991, Russian President Boris Yeltsin agreed that Crimea could remain in Ukraine, with Russia's Black Sea fleet remaining at Sevastopol under lease. That lease was in recent years extended to 2042.

    Is there a legal basis for Russia's actions?
    Under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the US, Russia, Ukraine and the UK agreed not to threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. They also pledged never to use economic coercion to subordinate Ukraine to their own interest.

    Russia says its decision to send troops into Ukraine is necessary to protect Russian citizens.

    There is an ethnic Russian majority in Ukraine's autonomous republic of Crimea. Russia's Black Sea fleet is based at Sevastopol, where much of the population have Russian passports. But the US insists there is no legal basis for the Russian move, accusing Moscow of acting unilaterally in violation of its commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty. The G7 group of leading economies agrees.

    Under the terms of its agreement with Ukraine, Russia is entitled to have 25,000 troops on the peninsula and currently has an estimated 16,000 deployed there. But these troops have to remain on base. They are now in place across Crimea.


    Crimean republic

    • Ethnic Russians - 58.5%

    • Ethnic Ukrainians - 24.4%

    • Crimean Tatars - 12.1%

    Ukraine census 2001
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    In 2009, the majority supported friendly relations with Russia but did not want to be a part of Russia again:

    The population of Crimea is opposed to the idea of becoming a part of Russia. Sevastopol Mayor Serhiy Kunitsyn claimed this to a press conference in Moscow on Monday.

    According to an UNIAN correspondent, he said: “I would not say about all people, but the recent polls in Crimea indicate that the overwhelming majority of people do not support separating [from Ukraine] and returning Crimea and Sevastopol to Russia”.

    According to S.Kunitsyn, 58% of ethnic Russians live in Crimea. At the same time, he stressed, the majority of Crimena residents support friendly relations rather than becoming a part of Russia.


    In 2008, it was recognised that Russia was handing out Russian passports to 'ethnic Russians' in the Crimean region - which was seen to be a direct step because of Russia's history (and desire) of military intervention to protect its citizens. So their handing out Russian passports to Russian speaking Ukrainians in the region was seen as a pre-cursor to what we are seeing today.

    No surprises there. Russia wants to maintain its warm water port.
     
  16. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    I'd guess most Russians in Russia would prefer not to be part of Russia if they had a chance.

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    It is slowly emerging from chaos after the dissolution of the USSR,
    and Putin, despite being a semi-gangster, must be given some credit for that.
    We, in the rest of the West, don't appreciate what true hardship is.
    It's when the spring comes and frozen bodies are appearing like black daffodils out of the snow-melt.

    Putin gives the impression of wanting to reassemble the USSR.
    Is that want he wants, or what he wants you to think he wants?
    The National Sport is chess you know.
     
  17. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Putin may have blinked. He has ordered his troops back to base. Couriously he is denying those unmarked ships, tanks, trucks and soldiers are not his.

    Kudos to the Ukranian government. They have not taken Putin's bait.
     
  19. RedRabbit Registered Senior Member

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    So he's admitting they are his?

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    Edit: Nvm...just the ones doing 'exercises' in Russia apparently. The ones in Crimea are still there.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Yes the mystery stealth Russian troops in the Ukraine have not returned to base. Putin says those troops are not his.
     
  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure he has blinked. I begin to suspect the goal all along may have been to occupy Crimea, get a round of applause from the Nationalists at home for being tough, and then negotiate - from a position of strength - Crimea's secession from Ukraine, via a popular referendum and maybe a guarantee that Ukraine won't be allowed to join NATO or something.

    Yazata may be right: the bastard may not be just a thug, but a clever thug, in a tight spot, trying to get what he can out of a bad (for him) situation…..
     
  22. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, he's right. You don't get to be Czar of All the Russias by being stupid.
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Given Russian leadership's contempt for disagreement, one has to wonder what kind of bubble Putin is living in. And that is an innately dangerous situation.
     

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