21 years for 77 lives, congrats Norway!!!

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Syzygys, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Are you bringing up the insanity defense? That is a valid defense, but he was declared sane by the doctors and himself both. So if you are sane dude, the law comes down on you...

    By the way, what if I say he should have got only 2 years, because 21 is cruel and unusual??? How would you argue against that???
     
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  3. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    I expressed my opinion on it about a dozen times in the last 8 years here, so what can I say more instead of just repeating it??

    Not sure what point you are referring to.

    Read what I said to Pjdude. As you said, he should get a real chance at being released, assuming he might change. If he won't get a real chance, the whole evaluation process is just a farce.
     
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  5. Balerion Banned Banned

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    That's not true. People who say he will never be free are saying this because they (we) believe that he will never be allowed out. The fact that they have a maximum sentence that falls within his expected lifetime does not mean that they believe everyone can be rehabilitated, nor does it mean that everyone gets out. I sincerely believe he will be in prison for the rest of his life.

    Agony and debate? There doesn't seem to be anyone who really believes he'll ever get out, so who is suffering? Not everyone who commits murder in the US gets a life sentence, you know. We have parole and other ways for inmates to become free after committing terrible crimes. We certainly don't execute them all and donate their organs.
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    It's funny watching the barbarians screaming about how much better there system is than the Norwegians inspite of the evidence to the contrary such as your appallingly high murder rate compared to countries without the DP, not to mention the tiny recivication rates in Norway compared to the US. Lastly I haven't seen ANY news reports complaining about how unjust this sentence is, no goverment spokesmen, no complaints from the procution, no reports from the media themselves or the victims families. The ONLY people complaining about it is you yanks and why is that? Because if there system works it shows you for the barbarians you are?
     
  8. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Because mobs are not prone to critical thinking. Humans develop a different mentality when in large groups, which is why the term "Mob mentality' has a pejorative connotation. This is psychology 101 stuff.

    I meant in the context of this thread. We were engaged in a discussion, and you went into Reboot mode by starting the same discussion again with someone else.


    You addressed it in a subsequent post that was not up when I responded to you. Never mind.


    I didn't say that he should be released, I asked what people thought of a hypothetical scenario in which he actually had been rehabilitated. I wanted to know what principals people relied on to say whether he should or shouldn't be allowed free if he's found to be rehabilitated.

    And even if he does seem to change for the better, he won't be judged in a bubble. Part of the evaluation will have to take into account where he began, and the things he said even after being caught. The argument here is that it's hard to imagine someone genuinely changing after having the mentality he does now. He's shown no remorse, except in that he didn't get to kill more people. What's going to make up for that?

    And you need to realize that the people who built their system obviously didn't build it around the concept of a man killing 77 people. It's hard to reconcile this event with their nation's history, which has been one of neutrality and peace. This sort of thing just doesn't happen over there.
     
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Oh there ya go, let's get all bigoted about. That's beautiful.

    I happen to be a "yank," and I'm arguing the superiority of Norway's system. Perhaps what makes people argue in favor of a failed system is ignorance rather than nationality? Just like it's ignorance that makes you lump us Americans as "barbarians."
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    nope I'm talking about how straight punishments breeds violent criminals. prisons have a large number of protocals in place for people in solitary confinement to prevent them them from losing their minds. pure punishments fails as it breaks the connections to society that one needs to function.

    I'd call you an idiot and be right. 21 years isn't cruel or unusual.
     
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    he has a real chance but its not going to happen. when the guy says given the chance he'd do it again he isn't going to get out. zealots of hatred rarely change.
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    You killed a mentally retarded man recently, sorry but unless you overturn your whole system "barbarian" fits your current system quite well. Wether it's "health care" or "justice" your system is sickerning
     
  13. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    We're posting on a forum named SciForums, but I'm not aware of anything even remotely scientific about the belief that punishment stops or reduces crime.

    Also, enough with this ridiculous straw man argument that the Norwegians are completely helpless in the face of this evil man, and will be forced by their own nobility to release him once he has served twenty one years, regardless of whether they feel he is still dangerous or not. There is no good reason to believe this will be the outcome.
     
  14. Balerion Banned Banned

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    You realize I wasn't the one who killed him, yes? Or are you incapable of distinguishing people by their character?

    You hardly seem to have any ground to call anyone else "sickening."
     
  15. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Except that is not an argument, even if true...

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  16. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    And I believe I am going to win the lottery one day. I also have a hedge fund manager position for you, because you seem to know the future. He could get religion, become a folk singer writing children's books and reform himself, collecting stuffed animals. THEN what would be your reason not to release him?

    If one can not be rehabilitated, why keep him around?

    I know but shouldn't everyone gets the same chance? I mean except victims, of course, fuck those...

    Yeah, I heard that 77 families somehow suffer from pain. Must be rumors....

    Who cares what others think? We debate what COULD happen. People forget and even forgive and also change. 21 years is a long time...

    Family of the victims? It could even be that some of the relatives have a worse life now than the murderer in prison.

    So? We are not discussing the US, we are discussing one special case. I mentioned earlier, some people deserve a second chance, some don't. This guy doesn't.

    Nobody said all should be executed. But quite a lot more than now....
     
  17. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Calling people names and using big words (revenge, vengeance, etc) is NOT an argument. If you tell me (logically argue) why 21 years is the exactly correct sentence and not 10 or 5 or 2 years, I will get you the Nobel prize. I have a perfectly logical explanation for the bullet in the head solution...
     
  18. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    No execution ever breed more violent criminals...

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  19. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Please list the crimes commited by executed men....
     
  20. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    But why not? If he has changed and he is most likely not a danger anymore, why shouldn't he be released? The Norwegians either bullshit themselves with their system or not.

    And if everyone agrees he will not change (a future nobody really knows) than why not just get ride of him? I assume an execution is cheaper in Norway than keeping him around, so the economic bullshit argument can not be used...

    You mean he will be judged by bias??? Oh come on, it can not be!

    yeah, they only imagined victims up to a dozen...
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    How would they be "bullshitting" themselves? In some ways, it's the same principal we have here in the US. Murderers are often eligible for parole in 15-25 years, even during life sentences (of course there are sentences that include no parole opportunities, but the point is that this system isn't quite so alien as you seem to think), and rely on parole boards to judge their rehabilitation. Parole boards in this country keep dangerous offenders off the streets all the time, so why are you so afraid that a monster like Anders Breivik is going to bamboozle the Norwegians into letting him go?

    Two reasons: One, as you said, nobody knows. We can assume, but what kind of justice system bases sentencing protocol on guesses? For all we know, he will be rehabilitated. It would be wrong (in the context of their system) to throw the switch based on people's assumptions. Two, the death penalty was abolished in Norway back in the 70s, but hadn't actually been used in peacetime since the 1800s.

    Nobody's arguing economics. They clearly don't believe in the death penalty over there. The same is true of many states within the US, as you well know. Not everyone shares your bloodlust and lack of appreciation for human life.

    Well, they're human beings. Whoever said otherwise?


    Not even that. I know it must blow your mind as a fellow American, but the fact is that not every nation shares our violent bent. Norway has a very low crime rate in general, especially among violent crimes. And at any rate, they believe that people can be rehabilitated, and they don't believe in arbitrarily locking people up forever or killing them. They judge each case on its merits, each person by their character. I think it's a great system. If Anders Breivik remains a threat to society, he won't ever see the light of day again. That's a fact. If he is truly rehabilitated, then he will. (or perhaps I should say might; this is a very peculiar case) If you want to argue why a person who kills other human beings in cold blood should never walk the street again, let's have at it, but this nonsense about their system being somehow inferior to ours has to stop.
     
  22. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Simply. First, they say, nobody gets more than 21 years, then next day say, well, not so fast, some people will get life. Sounds BS to me...

    Sure, but not AFTER their sentence ended...

    Why would I be afraid? He is killing them, not me. But if they want to be straight with their system, they should give him a fair chance at changing and getting out of jail after the sentence...

    Yeah, so? They can never change it back?

    Not yet. Just wait until we discuss the DP in the US, one of the favorite argument is that it is cheaper to keep them alive. Well, not in Norway! (I hope)

    That would change if mass murderers started to travel there to kill from other countries, because there is no real repercussion...

    Oh, the big words again. You guys like big words, I like arguments. I would just push them into a deep whole and let nature do the rest...

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    You talking about him, right?

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    Why should I be better than a criminal? Where is the equality??

    And I do too, just not for everyone. It is like a sports game, some players gets a 2 minutes penalty, some are ejected from the game... Simple as it is...
     
  23. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Not completely related, but a fascinating interview with a former prisonguard:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/yw7d6/as_requested_iama_former_prison_guard_who_worked/

    Q:What was the worst crime that someone was executed for while you were working there?

    A:While we weren't given any information on the inmates, sometimes certain inmates would stick out in my mind that I'd go home and find the information. The worst I found was one guy that killed a child, skinning it while it was still alive. I tried not talking to him anymore.

    -------------------------

    For extra fun, for those who think prisoners can not hurt anyone anymore (well, innocents I mean) here is what gassing means:

    "Threw a bag of piss at me from a second story cell. It busted at my feet, getting all over my uniform. Thankfully he missed his target. That being the top of my head."

    Def:Gassing is a term used in prison, it is when a prisoner stores feces, urine, and sometimes blood in a bag; which is used to assault a guard usually during head counts. Usually from a convicts which have a life sentence because they're not going anywhere...
     

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