2012 National Defense Authorization Act

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Servant_, Dec 14, 2011.

  1. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    That magic piece of paper has been around since Day 1. Executive orders by Presidents and Governors alike--and the written commands of all kinds of officials: arrest warrants, summonses, orders, subpoenas, writs, etc--have been routinely used to apprehend suspects, to seize assets, or to force the parties in a matter to appear.

    This thread seems to revolve around a fear of losing a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution. Probably there is not an actual fear of arrest itself, since, with or without the bill, the police already are empowered to make arrests.

    So the folks here are worried about the possibility that, if arrested, they will end up in military detention, and this "magic paper" will allow it to occur.

    There is nothing to fear. The magic paper has no weight against a US citizen or resident, not because of what some other paper says, but because of the Constitution.

    While it's true that Constitutional rights have eroded, especially in matters like wiretapping of citizens, the rights dealing with due process are the most fundamental, and they will be the last to fall. Remember you have a right to confront your accuser, and of effective assistance of counsel, and to post bond, and there is habeas corpus, the right to be heard if you claim you are unlawfully held. Also, the crime is referred to the court of jurisdiction. Acts of terror, weapons, or conspiracy, etc, already fall under federal jurisdiction, which means the charge is referred to the court of the federal district in which the alleged crime occurred.

    So relax you're not going to Guantanamo, just Riker's island.
     
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  3. Psyche Registered Senior Member

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    Well, as long as I get a T-Shirt. Anything less will not buy my cooperation.
     
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  5. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

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    Actually I *would* agree that the right to habeas corpus was eroded by the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. We so hated criminals getting too many "appeals" (really, habeas proceedings), that we limited the grounds on which you can get a hearing. Worse it limits the right of a judge to set you free to circumstances where the laws was unreasonably applied or the facts unreasonably determined at the time of your arrest or any subsequent trial ("new evidence" that you may actually be innocent of whatever you are accused of is not longer cause to let you go, unless that evidence was presented and unreasonably ignored when you were arrested or tried).

    Few people cared in 1996.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Basically it means that now there is no difference between Iraqis, Afghans, Palestinians and Americans. Welcome to the world of equality
     
  8. Psyche Registered Senior Member

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    The objective truth is that there is no difference between Iraqi's, Afghans, Palestinians, and Americans. Sure, everyone has a magic scroll that says otherwise (America has the Constitution). But at the end of the day, there really is no such thing as a president either. It just a mass hallucination, no different from the mass hallucination that there exists a pope. He's just a guy in a funny costume. In reality there are simply human beings engaged in behavior. That's all. And the only objective standard we have to judge them is through their behavior. So we are playing a very dangerous game if we take all of the pomp and ceremony and titles that culture inundates us with as the standard of truth rather than seeing them for the primitive rituals they are. It is my judgment that this Obama fellow is a pathological case. And so long as people take him seriously, we are fucked: The Chain of Obedience
     
  9. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

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    Exactly. And that's why the next time you post anything about how hard conditions are for the Iraqis, Afghans or Palestinians, I'll remind you that Americans have things no better, so fuck them.
     
  10. Servant_ Registered Senior Member

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    ???
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  11. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense
     
  12. Servant_ Registered Senior Member

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    The NDAA claims generalizations of a population under tyrannical rule which are far too dangerous and lead to fanaticism and mob rule along with unbridled patriotism and the fear of what sits in the dark. This is exactly what “they” want. When the actual masters of the universe control both sides of the outcome, why fight it, right?

    Sublime attempts to usurp the kings and queens of THE NDAA are victories in themselves. They wish to set us upon the stone to be crushed like wheat so that we can be separated from the roots of liberty that bore us both. They shout to you from the shadows claiming they will protect you; they have your back. Follow the law and stay on course. Do not ask questions and do not attempt to deviate from the plan and you may survive. The NDAA is the only way out.

    Plant a garden with your neighbors. Sow the seeds of friendship and pass onto your children the message of kindness and self sacrifice. Dream big and fulfill the call in your life.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  13. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Talking nonsense.
     
  14. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

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    Surely you see this is emotionally driven hyperbole, to put it mildly. There is no grand conspiracy to turn our republic into a tyranny. If there were, it's a dumb plan, as even assuming the NDAA led to that, the legislators who wrote the bill have no way of knowing if "their" side will be the boot, or the face face being stomped on.

    If you want to argue that executive power needs to be more limited than the NDAA establishes, that's fine and fair enough, but this sort of mere rhetoric without substance is a far cry from that.
     
  15. steampunk Registered Senior Member

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    It's been over ten years since 911 and I just don't see that we really have this Big Bad Problem with terrorists.

    - there have been no attacks
    - the people they say they catch are a bunch of goofballs, nothing professional
    - it's easy to make a terror attack, as the LA arsonist proved, but the middle eastern terrorists are just not doing it, instead they are hacking Israeli credit cards from Mexico, why don't a hundred of them come over and just start setting off Burkhart barbe timed bombs? (They've had ten years?) I'm guessing we'd bomb the f out them and they know it.

    So, we have this environment where we really don't have this Big problem with terrorists and mysteriously they think this bill is oh so important? And suspiciously, this bills language brushes the average American close to the chest, meaning we can start dissapearing because of dissent.

    Because the intent is not clear in and of the bill, taking the general circumstances of the country into consideration is all we have left to establish a motive. I think the rich and powerful are seeking to maintain their hold in a economy full of cracks, where fossil fuel are threatening our future, were removing parity is becoming a more and more popular idea for sustainability. What a better way to do that than get people used to the idea of denying human's habeas corpus.

    By there definition, early Americans who broke free from England were terrorists. And they are seeking once again to establish this obsolete form of governing, and faith based prosecution, through this bill.

    Although, over time, this attitude was not hard to sneak into law in societies, there is not one country that has used this reasoning and not had to turn away from it later because it is intolerable and makes an embarrassing and stupid example in comparison to those who keep courts open to the public and use an evidence based reasoning process to find guilt. All the citizens of these countries look to the free countries (who have public courts and use reason), and seek their philosophy. They always wind up having to overtake the very retards that pass such legislation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  16. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    If you read the link above to the Lawfare blog you see that they (the law professors who main the blog, focused on national security law), say that the bill is largely just a codification in the statutes of what the Obama administration maintains is already the law. The bill is important, as Telemachus Rex suggests, only because it gives the Congressional imprimatur to what Presidents have been doing since 9/11 (plus if gives every detainee the right to a military review of his (or her) detention status and a few other things).
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Its the end of the world
     
  18. Servant_ Registered Senior Member

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    An interesting piece of legislation to strike the NDAA’s Section 1021, the discretionary detention provision authorizing the President to detain persons accused by the government of supporting terrorism, was introduced by RP. We will see where this leads.
     
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Just singing to his choir.
     
  20. Servant_ Registered Senior Member

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    Clear as a bell on Clear Channel Communications.
     

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