11000 scientists warn re climate change

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Xelasnave.1947, Nov 11, 2019.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    7,782
    I think my reference was to the folk who put the list together not the folk in the list.
    I can see you have a point.

    Nevertheless there are a number of folk on the list who do not call themselves scientists , the engineers for example, and that seems to support the proposition that it is not a list of scientists.

    There is one name who calls themselves an economist and I expect if they are a scientist they would indeed call themselves a scientist.

    And look at post 164 why haven't those folk called themselves scientists? I think the reasonable presumption must be simply because they are not scientists.

    The list claims to be a list of scientists...not a list of scientists, two economists, three engineers etc.
    The claim seems to be wrong.
    Alex
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    The point is...if you claim you have a list of scientists that is what can only be expected.
    You could not have a list of Doctors and include engineers and the like.
    As to proof.
    The folk making the claim the list is of scientists are the ones who need to support that claim, it is not up to someone else to prove that there claim is wrong...The situation is similar to a theist claiming there is a god and when called upon to prove such replies to the effect you prove that there is no god.

    It is reasonable to look at the site responsible for the list and their overview of those adding their names as less than competent and if you want to disagree that is up to you.
    I think the whole thing could have been managed much better given the importance of the message and again if you wish to think otherwise that is up to you.
    As I mentioned earlier I will be going bush shortly and won't be around for a while but before I go I would sincerely thank all those who contributed to my threads and provided such lively discussion, I really enjoyed all of it and must say it is an absolute pleasure to visit this site and get to discuss stuff with very intelligent (in my view) people.
    The smoke is very bad here in Sydney and looking at the map it seems there are fires along most of my trip.
    Have a great day folks.
    Alex
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    My degree is in engineering. I am the principal scientist at a drone company. Am I a scientist?
    My wife has a degree in biology, and worked in a research lab for two years after school. She did a fair amount of research; was named on a half dozen or so papers. Then she went back to medical school and became a surgeon. She would have signed that "physician." Is she a scientist?
    A friend of mine at my old company worked as a physicist for ten years in Russia. Then he came to the US and is now doing engineering. He would have signed that "engineer." Is he a scientist?
    Or their current title is not "scientist."
    For all the ones I checked on, the claim was correct.
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    You checked listed names which also had list qualifications and foundthe listed qualifications also count as being a scientist?

    If not to strenuous a tasks can you list those qualifications which also count as being scientists?

    Thanks

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  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Ditto

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  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I randomly checked the list. All of them had worked as scientists (i.e. done scientific research and published papers in science journals.)
    Working as a scientist. Since I know the word will now be redefined and mangled, here is the definition I use - someone who conducts scientific research to advance knowledge in an area of interest. That research is documented in published papers.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    18,098
    My wife is a doctor. But she is also a skydiver and a parachute rigger, and her current occupation is rigger. Does that make her not a doctor? If they had a list of doctors and had her included, would that make it false?
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Definition you give - much same as Miriam Webster

    But looking at the list I would really find it hard that some of the qualifications listed count as science

    However

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    Mildly confusing?

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  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    There are certainly "softer" sciences, like economics, psychology and sociology. But there is real science done in those fields, and people even win Nobel prizes doing work in those fields.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    23,388
    Post 164 is utter rubbish as you have not proven anything whatsoever.

    You keep making this dubious claim that it is fake, that they aren't all scientists.. 11,000 scientists agree from that list. You are making assumptions about their qualifications, casting doubt and those repeated question marks.. Honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself. I will give you one example of one of the names you highlighted in what will quickly become your infamous "post 164":

    They are meteorologists for the region and they classify themselves as customer service .. English translation.. https://www.zamg.ac.at/cms/en/topmenu/about-us/organization/zamg-innsbruck

    Another one that you listed in a manner that was instantly dubious and a look at the list showed your deliberate misrepresentation in your post 164:

    Scott Black is an ecologist and an Executive Director at The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation:

    Scott has authored over 100 scientific and popular publications, co-authored two books and contributed chapters to several others, dozens of reports on land management issues and his work has been featured in newspapers, magazines, books and on radio and television. He has presented to universities across the United States, as well as to international meetings and the National Academy of Sciences. Scott has received several awards including the 2011 Colorado State University College of Agricultural Sciences Honor Alumnus Award and National Forest Service Wings Across Americas 2012 Butterfly Conservation Award. [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hoffman-black-23205b8a]

    Your post 164 that you repeatedly told me to refer to, as though you had a trump card because you think it is dubious.. All I can say is that it makes you look foolish.

    You are not slandering these people? You posted their names in post 164 and cast doubt on the veracity of their qualifications on a publicly available forum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    excuse me ! i am auditing your science !

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  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Does that make her not a doctor?

    Depending on what your wife intends to do would affect what she puts forward

    My qualifications include Radio Technician Ground RAAF, Registered Nurse, Midwife, Associate Diploma Occupational Health and Safety and a few minor certifications

    My medical qualifications secured me a position of Safety Training Coordinator on a few off shore oil rigs, not so much my Radio Certificate (although it did get me positions of Radio Operator on two off shore platforms)

    Back to the list

    11,00 scientists - doctor, baker, candlestick maker - put down your qualification - IF that also qualifies you as a scientist - PUT DOWN SCIENTISTS

    One of the oil rig companies sent me to do a Life Boat Captain course

    If I was to apply for a oil rig position I certainly put that in

    But I would not put myself down as a Sailor

    So it appears, to me, the compilers of the list were sloppy at best, dishonest at worst and relying on lack of definitions (OK put Doctor X in, yes and all those qualifications that sound 'sciency')

    Oh well rant over - back to holiday

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  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No. But per XS, if she put down her occupation as rigger on a petition to be signed by doctors, it would make her "not a doctor."
    OK. If you do a petition, be sure to put that in the instructions. Problem solved.
    From my spot checks, they were not dishonest at all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Out of the six - six areas (peace, literature, physics,chemistry, physiology or medicine, and economic science) - my personal choice would be just 2 as science - PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY - while the others might have science aspects applied to them

    Example

    Liberian - rare book - all sorts of exotic test applied to the book to detect its age, composition of the pages and ink, ie tools of science

    The Librarian - expert in languages and regional writings narrows the origin of the book to a small region in a particular country

    The Librarian - knowledge

    Exotic test - science

    While doing this post I came across this

    library science
    noun
    • :the study or the principles and practices of library care and administration
    Firstuse: circa 1904

    Seriously? A science? Not specialist knowledge?

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    Back to holiday
     
  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    No

    I would put her as UNKNOWN as a doctor

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  19. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    Why did so many (27%) not sign the other/3rd paper?

    That 27% is a conservative figure as I have seen at least 1 surname where there are 5 different signatories in the 2017 letter and only 1 different signatory in the second/third paper.

    2017 https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/67/12/1026/4605229
    World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice
    William J. Ripple, Christopher Wolf, Thomas M. Newsome, Mauro Galetti, Mohammed Alamgir, Eileen Crist, Mahmoud I. Mahmoud, William F. Laurance, 15,364 scientist signatories from 184 countries
    BioScience, Volume 67, Issue 12, December 2017, Pages 1026–1028, https://doi.org/10.1093/biosci/bix125
    Published:
    13 November 2017
    2019 https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1093/biosci/biz088/5610806
    World Scientists’ Warning of a Climate Emergency
    William J Ripple, Christopher Wolf, Thomas M Newsome, Phoebe Barnard, William R Moomaw
    Author Notes
    BioScience, biz088, https://doi.org/10.1093/biosci/biz088
    Published:
    05 November 2019
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    from your linked:
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There were not.
    We have had several such letters over the past 10 or 20 years - they seemed to come out fairly regularly for a while, as a tactic. They were all fraudulent - somewhere around here, I think on this forum, I posted what I found by checking the first few dozen names on one of those lists; it wasn't pretty.
    The agw denial folks are very well funded, very well organized, and very busy, and they have wide access to all media - at least in the US. There is a lot of money at stake.
     

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