101 Zen Story Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by EvilPoet, Jan 20, 2003.

  1. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    I thought perhaps separate threads would be less confusing for those who read the 101 Zen Story thread and want to disscuss the stories/koans, but it has come to my attention that this might not be the case [see here]. Please feel free to ignore this thread if you are more comfortable posting in the 101 Zen stories thread. Whichever thread you choose - all questions, comments, insights, etc. are welcome.

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    I will start ...

    What is the sound of one hand?
    Can you hear soundless sound?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2003
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  3. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    New Threadz

    Reflect.
    what is, is
    what is not, is not
    find a place of silence and listen to is sound
    then you will understand the sound of one hand
    Dave the Druid
    PS Hi Evilpoet a good start I hope!
     
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  5. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    Hi Dave,

    Wait ... shhh ...
    can you hear it?

    What silence!
    The voice of the cicada
    Penetrates the rocks
    -Basho
     
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  7. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Hi Eve,

    To hear with in one's self is to hear the true sound.
    Great Basho qutoe!
    Dave the Druid
     
  8. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    "Hi Eve"

    I have to get going but I gatta ask ... Eve? Did I miss something?
    Man oh man - guess I'm just having one of those days where
    confusion reins, if you know what I mean. :bugeye:

    Cya later,
    EvilPoet
     
  9. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    1,330
    Yeah, I never got that one.... So the sound of one habnd calpping is the sound of silence? Whats the moral?

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  10. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    "Whats the moral?"

    The moral? Well, koans are not really like that imo. Here are a couple of excerpts
    from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones that I think expresses it far better than I can.

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    "What is the right answer to a koan? There are many right answers and there are also none. There is even a book in Japan, hard to come by, which gives proper answers to each of these mind-openers. What a joke! For the koan itself is the answer, and by the time there is a right answer to it Zen is dead."
    -Pgs. 156-157


    "Zen has many classic texts, of which this work is one. Mu-mon-kan ---literally, "no gate barrier"---was recorded by the Chinese master Ekai, also called Mumon, who lived from 1183 to 1260. The work consists of narrated relationships between ancient Chinese teachers and their pupils, illustrating means employed to sublimate the dualistic, outgoing, generalizing, intellectualizing tendencies of students in order that they might realize their true nature. The problems or inner challenges with which the masters confronted their pupils came to be called koans, and each of the following stories is a koan in itself. The stories use slang freely to actualize the highest teaching, the seeing into man's being. Occasional instances of apparent violence might be better interpreted as vigor and earnestness. None of the stories make any pretense at logic. They are dealing with states of mind rather than words. Unless this is understood, the point of the classic will be missed. The whole intent was to help the pupil break the shell of his limited mind and attain a second eternal birth, santoru, enlightenment. Each problem is a barrier. Those who have the spirit of Zen pass through it. Those who live in Zen understand one koan after another, each in his own way, as if they were seeing the unseen and living in the illimitable.

    Mumon wrote the following words in the introduction to the work: Zen has no gates. The purpose of Buddha's words is to enlighten others. Therefore Zen should be gateless. Now, how does one pass through this gateless gate? Some say that whatever enters through a gate is not family treasure, that whatever is produced by the help of another is likely to dissolve and perish. Even such words are like raising waves in a windless sea or performing an operation upon a healthy body. If one clings to what others have said and tries to understand Zen by explanation, he is like a dunce who thinks he can beat the moon with a pole or scratch an itching foot from the outside of a shoe. It will be impossible after all." -Pgs. 158-161
     
  11. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Evilpoet

    You missed nothing I simply shortened your handle, sorry if I offended!

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    "Water which is too pure has no fish"
    Ts'ai Ken T'an

    See Ya Soon,
    Dave the Druid
     
  12. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    136
    Silence?

    Firefly,
    There is no true silence, even silence has a sound but what that sound is is different for each of us. I sense that you are probing deep waters when the fish you seek are close to the surface. Read the stories and koans think about them but don't dwell on them.
    Dave the Druid

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  13. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    No offense taken at all. I was just confused as to where the
    name came from. Thanks for clarifying, much appreciated.

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  14. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Nice

    Evilpoet,
    The sun rises over the sea
    a village stirs in the light
    birds fly in search of warmth

    Dave the Druid
     
  15. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Nice

    So we're posting koans in this thread too??

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  16. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Firefly

    Please Forgive me!
    I was posting a quick poem in response to Evilpoet. I didn't mean to clutter the thread. Sorry!
    Dave the Druid

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  17. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    Dave,

    Nice poem, I liked it. It goes very well with my morning
    cup of java. Thanks. I am curious, did you write it?

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  18. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Morning Poem

    Evilpoet,
    I thought it was morning for you, it was morning for me too. Yes, I wrote it. I'm glad you liked it.

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    Dave the Druid
     
  19. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    Breakfast enjoyed
    in the fine company of
    morning glories
    -Basho

    And of course, you're poem.
    Thanks again.

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    Have a good one. Cya later.
     
  20. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Have an insightful day

    Evilpoet,
    Have an aware day,

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    I'll look for some interesting things to post.

    Dave the Druid
     
  21. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    136
    A way to exist

    The Wise Ones of Old

    The wise ones of old had subtle wisdom
    And depth of understanding,
    So profound that they could not be understood.
    Because they could not be understood,
    I can only describe how they appeared in the world:

    Cautious, like crossing a wintry stream,
    Watchful, like one facing danger on every side,
    Ceremonious, as one who pays a visit;
    Yielding, like ice beginning to melt,
    Genuine, like a piece of uncarved wood,
    Open-minded, like a valley,
    And mixing freely, like murky water.

    Which of you can assume such murkiness,
    To become in the end still and clear:
    Which of you can make yourself still,
    To become in the end full of life?
    Those who possess this Tao do not try to
    Fill themselves to the brim,
    And because they do not try to
    Fill themselves to the brim
    They are like a garment that endures
    All wear and need never be renewed.

    — Lao Tzu
    Combined translations from The Wisdom of Lao Tzu by Lin Yutang (1948)

    Dave the Druid
     
  22. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Firefly

    No no, I just meant, thought we were gonna do one koan at a time and discuss it. But you seem to just be posting them and moving on?

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  23. Dave the Druid Registered Senior Member

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    Not at all

    Firefly,
    Please forgive me! I am more than happy to discuss anything posted, koan, storey or quote.
    Did you read my Lao Tzu quote? I hope it helps.
    Dave the Druid

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