‘Spanish Sept 11th’

Discussion in 'World Events' started by weebee, Mar 12, 2004.

  1. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    374
    Maybe I missed it but I don’t think anyone’s posted anything about Spain. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040312/ap_on_re_eu/spain_bombings_1

    I’d be interested to know how connected feel to this people. I was in A’dam when Sept 11 happend, and I was horrified. But this happens, I’m in Europe, I know a lot more Spanish people, but I feel less connected.

    –why, because they speak Spanish? Because they aren’t powerful and a symbol of ‘freedom’. A small number of people killed in comparison (199) but by a method that would target me, (I’m not going to be employed in a tall building or on an airplane anytime soon, but I do take the train through London).

    So how do Americans feel about this –do they even know about it?

    weebee
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Did you know that this terrorist attack occured 911 days since the American bombing? Rather spooky isn't it. The terrorists also said they were going to try something soon in America. I hope they find these murderers and hang them high!
     
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  5. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    If it was ETA terrorists does that make any difference to you?
     
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  7. Undecided Banned Banned

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    We don't know who is responsible yet for the attack against this Spanish target. It could be ETA but supposedly they have denied any involvement, others say that it could be a fringe group of ETA like the "real IRA" which is much more militant then the IRA. It could be an Islamic group, Al Qaeda, or another. The “or another” option is the one that should worry us. That means that there are other groups out there that are independent of Al Q yet have enough organizational power to conduct such actions. I totally reject the notion that ETA and Al Q would work together, that's simply ridiculous. We don't know what this could mean, but welcome to terrorism. You never know, and the weird thing is that you can't fight it like the US had been trying to. You need massive international coalition’s especially Islamic states to deal with this issue. Western initiatives will not be taken seriously; the Islamic world has to reform itself should it want to have no terrorism. The key to this war is not in the hands of the few but of the many. This attack was a horrid attack on innocent people with over 1400 or so injured. The real question that an analyst today posed on CNN is, will the “coalition of willing” survive this? Already Europeans did not support American actions by and large, and with many elections this year. The US could lose some key allies.
     
  8. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    374
    In many ways I’m not interested in the ‘truth’ of the matter, which I’ll never be able to judge (maybe when I’m 70 and the docs come out of secrecy). Instead I’m interested in how people respond to this.

    It seems to me that Western people have forgotten that there is no such thing as a terrorist. There are just politically minded people willing to die and kill for what they believe in, and they use the military technique of terrorism. The only way to stop such people from using terrorism is to make it ineffective and harmful in relationship to an effective technique in gaining power. With globalisation terrorism has become international, but suitable examples against the idea of countering terrorism with violence and control can be gained from history (i.e. the fight against colonization.)
     
  9. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Instead I’m interested in how people respond to this.


    Fascism, plain and simple. In western societies like Uruguay, and Argentina where they did have a terrorist problem in the 60's and 70's they both had a fascist, military dictatorship take over power and "purge" the country of deviants. The thing is that it worked neither nation had “terrorist” problems anymore. What it does have is massive psychological damage from those “dirty wars”. Fascism masks itself under a veneer of nationalism, militarism, and extreme obedience to the laws. In the US you have Patriot acts, and in Europe you are now going to have the same. There is going to be a shift to the right in the West sooner or later to respond to this threat, real or imagined.
     
  10. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    12,061
    I think that a "Spanish 9/11" comparison doesn't hold up well, because Spaniards are far less psychologically sheltered than Americans, collectively speaking, when it comes to terrorism. Sadly, ETA has long plagued Spain, and there is greater understanding there of the complex realities of terrorism. Already Spain's official response has been more measured than the response the US government and public had to 9-11.

    The Spanish public clearly expressed last year their reservations about contributing to the occupation of Iraq, on the grounds that they did not want another bloody fight to come home to their streets. Aznar leads a right-wing Spanish movement that, like it's counterpart in the US, is having limited success in mobilizing the majority to support self-exciting cycles of blood and guts.

    Here's hoping that Americans will have enough empathy to take notice, and that Spain will show Americans that good cooperative police work, and not international rampage, is the way to disrupt international terrorists.
     
  11. Undecided Banned Banned

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    But Europe is much more complex then the US; there are serious problems that they face. One being the population implosion Spain has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, and Europe is well below the 2.1/woman replenishment quota to keep the pop. going. Europe's pop. will decrease by leaps and bounds over the next 100 years, it is expected that Europe's population without immigration will go from 800 million in 1995 to about 300 million in 2100, with a huge percentage being elderly. Why do I bring this up? Simple because Islam will become a much more potent threat in Europe, and I think personally that fascism is only a matter of time. It is a very real possibility that Islam will overtake Christianity in some regions of Europe. It's dangerous for Europe over the next century, and one can only hope for peace.
     
  12. weebee Registered Senior Member

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    374

    Hmmm, from what I gather from Spanish friends its not more measured, its just not translated into English. Their gov. is using this just like the US did.
     
  13. otheadp Banned Banned

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    * ETA denied involvement

    * “The Scientific Police concludes that the explosives and detonators are not the habitual ones of ETA.” link (in spanish)

    * Spaniards immidiately surrendered to the "militants"
    (check out the piece of donkey vomit in the middle of the pic... this certainly is nothing like the terror done by bearers of this type of kafiyah)

    * Spain, spain.. when will you finally learn?

     
  14. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Oth what are you saying? Who surrendered to who? Peaceful protest is surrendering to the militants? What donkey vomit? Spain along with other nations recognize that anti-terrorist actions must be done in the context of enforcing their own borders, and using intelligence assets. I think Spain has been one of the most successful states in Europe in terms of catching Al Q suspects. What alternative is there? Spain cannot go to war against anyone, nor would they. This is globalized terrorism, and the solutions are few and far btwn but they are there.
     
  15. otheadp Banned Banned

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    the solution is clear
    spain :
    stop your crusader advantures (whatever that means)
    get out of Iraq (and abandon reconstruction efforts)
    get out of muslim lands (the crusaders stole the land of spain from muslims, apparently)

    oh yeah, i almost forgot -
    stop any diplomatic, economic, cultural, scientific contacts with the Great Satan (US)
     
  16. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    5,946
    Under different circumstances that would be funny. You think it is right to kill hundreds of innocent people because their country does what it basically NEEDS to do and doesn't isolate itself from the rest of the world? Yet at the same time you'll complain if an attack by a western country accidently hits some civilians.

    The solution is even clearer than you think. Don't kill innocent civilians. Most could have no idea what the 'cause' actually was, and those that find out now will most certainly not look at helping it.
     
  17. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    America doesn't blink an eye when 200 non-Americans are murdered; doesn't this apathy simply ratchet up the pressure on your average anti-American terrorist to try to top the terrifying visual of toppling two of the world's tallest buildings on the same morning, killing thousands with millions watching on TV?

    Just to get our attention.

    Terrorists are not stupid: they will see now, if they didn't before, that nothing short of mass slaughter on American soil will get America to look up. The goal of any terrorist is always to achieve political change - in the case of al Qaeda, the exit of the United States from Saudi Arabia and the ouster of Saddam from Iraq, among other goals. Killing people is just a means to a terrorist's political goals. The bottom line is that the terrorists have to be able to break into the news cycle and break through the clutter, just like anyone else trying to sell a product or make a political point.

    When we set the bar for attention - which is what terrorists want and need - at the 9/11 level, then 9/11, or better, is what they must try to give us. So, that is what they will try to do... because nothing else will get our attention. America's total apathy to anything but a nuclear fireworks show over Baltimore Harbor makes getting rid of George Bush all the more important. We need someone who understands where the real dangers to our nation come from, and that we need to do tough, patient, international, dirty and obscure tasks like adopting true nuclear non-proliferation measures. If the goal is to make America safer, we simply cannot afford to engage in any more headline-grabbing but ultimately irrelevant or counterproductive measures.

    Such as attacking tyrannical despots with 30-year records of not attacking America.

    :m: Peace.
     
  18. foucaulteco Registered Senior Member

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    Why was this attrocity committed??
    What can be gained by the perpertrators?
    All I can think of is that the world wide coverage is the main motive in which case why the hell doesn't someone claim responsibility?
    Maybe there are darker forces at work here, those who would like to see a return to fascism in Spain/Europe.
    As mentioned above it seems that the overall response to these terror attacks is to lean towrd the right, as mentioned it worked in South America in the 70s.
    Who has the most to gain from a lean to the right?
    Although these attacks are abhorant does the slaughter of 200 people justify such a response as a right wing dictatorship, the slow degradation of cival liberties as in the US and the invasion of privacy that ensues with any security enhancement?
    Already, due to our alledged prosperity right wing governments are in power all over the place, the US, Australia, Austria, Spain and even though perported to be "New Labour" my opinion is that the UK has a right leaning government atm etc...
    YET, the gap between the have and have nots is widening, so why the hell do we have these right wing fanatics who endulge in cronyism and hold the ideals that "you should look after yourself"
    I think it might have something to do with the fact the working clas is busy once more at cutting it's own throat by watching their news on FOX!! idiots, honestly, why do they read tabloids and watch trailer park channels that forward the ideals of the right??? I just don't get it.
    It's a synical excercise at best, trying to get a larger portion of media ownership just shows that they are evil at worst in that they control the mass populas through properganda.
    Another right wing fanatic did the same, his name was Goebells.
    To get back to the topic at hand, although I don't beleive I've deviated as to gain the medias attention seems to be the reason for the Madrid tradgerdy.
    It seems that we are adding fuel to the fire of hatred in muslim countries when our right wing governments lie to their people over the reasons why they invade a SOVERIGN country, pre-emptive attack? what the fu*k is that?
    The reason Bush went into Iraq was so far from the reasons given that it is no wonder hatred builds to such a point that people are willing to commit such crimes.
    The Rumsfeid and Cheeny Neoconservative coup in the pentagon may be one place to look for answers to why Madrid happened.
    PNAC in it's mission statement on page 51 said that they needed a Pearl Harbour to get their vision happening at a decent pace, their vision is one of American dominance of the globe, this cannot happen with Islam standing in the way, so of course you're going to get a modern day reverse crusade.
    These people are protecting their way of life and religion in the only way available, how else are they to get their voices heard?
    Their groups are banned and the media beats their cause at every opportunity.
    Mark my words this will turn into a war of Christian Vs Muslim, it already is.
    Bush the reborn evangelical fundementalist with his viscious little sidekick condecending condeleeza Rice.
    I would fight for the freedoms I have, but not for Bush's phoney wars.
    Why should the US think it has the right to impose a "western democracy" on these countries?
    Every nation has the right to self determination, and our style of democracy isn't suited to everyone, it evolved in our part of the world naturally, the same way other regions naturally evolved to needing despotic dictators to keep the country together, at least Sadam did that, you wait that place will decend into civil war as surely as Bush f*&ks himself every sunday with a grapefruit.
    I know this post is a little incoherent and I really should itemise my points, but this thread is for free thoughts and that's what I'm doing, just typing what comes to mind bearing in mind that the topic is Madrid, and I'm trying to follow that in everything I'm writing.
    Why do right wing governments get into power when they clearly only look after the intereste of the top % and well to do, is it simply through properganda and the fact that neoconservatives own said media?
    Are we that shallow and stupid?
    Reading through some links from Micheal Moores web page and his book "stupid white men" really was an eye opener as far as why the states has the foreign policy it does, and it all evolves around big business and oil.
    Sick that for the profits of the few, so many , on both sides have to suffer and die.
    There are SOOO many US soilders maimed over in Iraq it's not funny, the figures are never widely discussed and NEVER on FOX news.
    Imagine how many Iraqis have died or been injured? and we wonder why these depserate people choose desperate measures to get their message accross?
    I am not in any way condonning what happened in Espania, but when you are under the yolk of such oppressive foreign policy what's a young militant to do?
    Bush is giving them the amo for his own and freinds business interests and quarterly profits, and oh, I forgot the shareholders, that's always a good excuse.
    If that bastard gets into power again by steeling yet another election god help us all.
    If he does win, next year will be Syria, then Iran and we will wonder again why a train in say London is blown up, people come on it's bloody obvious, and this time it's because we started it with this pre-emptive bullshit.
    Please don't tell me Bush didn't know that 12 years of UN sanctions had so crippled the whole infrastructure of Iraq that it had a hard time manufacturing baby powder let alone chemical, biological or (what a complete laugh) Nuclear weapons.
    We should have all known this when with the build up to the first gulf war we were led to beleive the Iraqis could put up a decent fight when all along the pentegon knew it was going to be a "turkey shoot"
    I beleive Bush should be impeached, what he has done is an impeachable offense, he and he alone has put the lives of ordinary commuters on their way to work in Madrid, Dusseldorf, Utrect, Lyon, Bruxselles, Copenhaven, Rimini, (not Bolognia, they've had theirs unfortunately), thesselonika, Prague, etc... etc... etc... unlike Clinton who only messed with a cigar.
    What also shits me is that , say in Spain the people didn't want war, but the majority didn't matter, the same in the UK and here in the land of OZ, what the hell is a democracy suppossed to be??
    I think I'm going to start a thread on the Iraq war with some home truths, and sources for those who are still under the impression that Bush is acting in the best interests of ordinary Americans of other Christians around the world.
    God damn it, are we going to have another major war over religion? havn't there been enough? Hasn't enough blood been spilt in the name of love and peace?
    The premise with which religion is based is fair enough it's the bastards who administer the whole thing that mess it up.
    Maybe humans cannot handle power, maybe absolute power does corrupt absolutly?
    I shall now do some research and for those interested shall make a new thread with some facts about the Neoconservative government in the US and the real reasons why terrorists are targetting western interests may become more apparent.
    By the way Kudos to anyone who read this whole post, good on ya!!!
    I'm just angry, angry that normal Spaniards on their way to work who have nothing to do with this BS end up mutillated, crippled, blooded and mangled.
    Madrid is a wonderful place, I love Spain, although I had a shitful time on the Canneries some years back, Catalonya is fantastic, with Figures where Dali has his museum and Caraccas where he was born, Port beu just over the border from Ceberre in France, man did I get drunk there!! whoa!!!
    I meant to just pass through and ended up living there for 3 months!!! I just couldn't beleive how cheep the alcohol was especially compared with just the other side of the tunnel in France where une pastisse would cost a days walking up and down the beeches selling boisson fresh, bignets aux pommes, or glace a la glace stick um up ya *** bloody chou chous! jeez! and then the mistral would hit and there'd be no work for 3,6,9 or 12 days depending how le von felt and I'd end up eating dog food or rummaging through the aftermarth of a Sete market.
    Still Antonio's bar in Port Bou made up for all that, I wonder if it's still there?
    I met some wonderful women and other peoples there from all over the globe, and not one of them would put the lives of young men and women in the firing line for personal gain and profit, even if they were from the US (joke)
    I've gone on long enough.
    Adios muchachos
    Mark
     
  19. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    Othe did the donkey vomit? Undecided you are too much

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    Othdep too funny your statement is, ETA denied and you believe them, offcourse you did what if al-qeda deny any attack, would you believe them just like that? lol. Have you always been hyporcate like that? or is it a sudden attack?
     
  20. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    970
    For Otheadp:

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/164689_spain13.html


    *Oh interesting part for Otheadp*

    ..."So far, none of the intelligence services or security forces we have contacted have provided reliable information to the effect that it could have been an Islamic terrorist organization," Interior Minister Angel Acebes said Friday.


    Don't jump up and down with conclusions and by some un authentic FAX. This sort of behavior is not very semite. You guys are more patience and enjoy the fireworks, aren't ya?



    If ETA is found responsible, that could boost support for Mariano Rajoy, Aznar's hand-picked candidate to succeed him as prime minister. Both have supported a crackdown on ETA's campaign for an independent state in northern Spain, ruling out talks and backing a ban on ETA's political wing, Batasuna.


    However, if Thursday's bombings are seen by voters as the work of al-Qaida, that could draw their attention to Aznar's vastly unpopular decision to endorse the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites) and deploy Spanish troops there...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2004
  21. skywalker 3 @ T M 3 Registered Senior Member

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    \


    about time pothead should put his both feet in his mout. ha





    Bombs were Spanish-made explosives
    Millions pack Madrid's streets
    Friday, March 12, 2004 Posted: 6:21 PM EST (2321 GMT)



    Thousands fill the central Cibeles square and the main Gran Via street in Madrid during a demonstration to protest the train bombings.

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    • CNN in Spanish


    MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- As investigators learned more about the bombs that ripped through trains killing and maiming, millions of people across Spain gathered in chilly rain to protest the terror attacks and mourn the victims Friday.

    "It seems like the sky is crying," said one woman.

    Suspicion for the coordinated terror attacks has fallen on Basque separatist group ETA and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.

    The 10 backpack bombs, carried aboard four trains and detonated almost simultaneously at three stations, killed 199 people and wounded more than 1,450.

    Authorities said they found and safely detonated three more bombs, apparently set on timers to explode later, when rescuers and security forces were on the scene.

    The explosive used came from inside Spain and is similar to explosives used in previous attacks by ETA, according to Glenn Schoen, a security analyst who has seen the latest police analysis.

    On the other hand, the copper detonators used in the backpack bombs were more sophisticated than the aluminum detonators previously used in bombs linked to ETA, said Schoen, who has worked with Spanish police on train security.
     
  22. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

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    1,996
    the land is muslim?? Astounding! I thought all land was "mother earth" of which we should all be proud parasites upon her. The only satan mentioned in this thread goes under the collective name of arabic terrorism. Mohamed must be turning in his grave.
     
  23. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    UN Security Council blames ETA

    The Security Council,

    Reaffirming the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and its relevant resolutions, in particular its resolution 1373 (2001) of 28 September 2001,

    Reaffirming the need to combat by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts,

    1. Condemns in the strongest terms the bomb attacks in Madrid, Spain, perpetrated by the terrorist group ETA on 11 March 2004, in which many lives were claimed and people injured, and regards such act, like any act of terrorism, as a threat to peace and security;

    2. Expresses its deepest sympathy and condolences to the people' and Government of Spain and to the victims of the terrorist attacks and their families;

    3. Urges all States, in accordance with their obligations under resolution 1373 (2001), to cooperate actively in efforts to find and bring to justice the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of this terrorist attack;

    4. Expresses its reinforced determination to combat all forms of terrorism, in accordance with its responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations.

    Source : http://www.usembassy.it/file2004_03/alia/a4031105.htm

    Source: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=10046&Cr=terror&Cr1=

    Are you still blaming Al Qaeda ???

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2004

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